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WinMX World :: Forum  |  WinMX World Community  |  Nice To Meet You!  |  hello
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Author Topic: hello  (Read 2152 times)

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Offline splintered

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hello
« on: February 28, 2011, 04:00:11 am »
So... I have been around on WinMX for about 2 weeks, and I am going to explain a bit about how I feel.




Let me start out by saying that I was asked by someone (I can't remember who, it might have been silicon toad) why I was here. I actually find that to be a quite good question.
The reason I came back was that I stumbled across an old folder where I had all my WinMX junk, like Nushi chats, old RCMS dll-files, chat logs, addons for nushi chat, various chat servers, basically all the WinMX related files I had used in my time on WinMX. I also stumbled across some old text document I wrote 4 years ago where I was planning to spread the awareness of how MXPie was actively disrupting the network with their hosts file.

That's when I decided to download WinMX to check the state of the place, and to see if MXPie was still around so I could piss them off with the document. Luckily, MXPie had moved off the hosts file and on to using the community patch (Which was also somewhat to my disappointment, because it meant the efforts I did back then were useless)

So, my next thought was, "hey, let me go visit WMW to see what they are up to."

Ever since I started using WinMX, I was curious about the inner workings of WinMX and how the WPN worked. Eventually I understood the network inside out, not at a packet/message level, but I knew the exact route all info passing through WinMX would take (that's why I wrote the document about how hosts files were disrupting the network in the first place, understanding the impact they had). I had also done some light research of the WPNP at the time, and I knew which tools to use to find the format and message types if I had to, but I wasn't experienced enough with programming at the time to make anything significant for WinMX.

However after having been away from WinMX for around maybe 4 years, and having programmed a lot on other projects meanwhile, I thought that it would be interesting to go back to the good old WinMX to see if I could throw together some stuff that would work with WinMX, and maybe, impress someone.

I wanted to look a bit into something that had not been looked too much into before, like coding a program that could act as a primary, and possibly something that could be extended into accepting connections from a secondary later.

So I started out talking a bit about the protocol, possible vulnerabilities and weaknesses in WinMX and a bit about my ideas of how to fix them in the chat, to see if I could get the people interested in the protocol chatting up about it. I was hoping that the correct people would speak up and provide me with some of the details already known about the WinMX protocol, so I could continue from there and build my work on the fundament that others had already created, instead of reinventing the wheel and working out all the details from the beginning myself (This is something I am capable of, but it is time consuming, therefore, I was hoping to get some help there)

However, it didn't take very long before I realised that even mentioning that WinMX has such a thing as weaknesses was strictly forbidden in the chat. I got lots of accusations of trying to disrupt WinMX, and that if I wasn't happy with WinMX, I should have fixed it myself. Then while I was trying to keep a reasonable conversation with the people I was discussing it with, other admins, such as Ace and bluey oh gook joined the chat trying to back up their friends. I also realised that I was a bit too optimistic thinking that being directed to the already known info about WinMX was as easy as asking a question.

Ever since that, people have done everything they can to ensure that I don't get the little extra help I have asked for, by just getting in the way and starting arguments instead of answering simple questions that could save me a lot of time...

Here's a good example: I asked if someone knew where to get hold of Drac's cache tool.. The reason why I wanted it, was that I needed it to make WinMX connect to where I wanted it to in association with some OTHER research I was doing. Knowing that this tool already existed, I thought it was unnecessary to waste my time writing a cache tool, when what I really wanted was to work on was primary connections..

But asking such a simple thing turns out to  a massive fight, and I am being held back when trying to progress forward..
So instead of starting out with my "primary WPN relay" program today, I've had to modify a cache to fit to my purpose. This is time that could be better spent elsewhere.


Please consider this.. I know that there are people on WinMX without coding skills who are eager to help in the places where they can. They sit with info that is useful to programmers who do know how to code. All the tools and info about WinMX that a programmer could ever want, exists. Those people, and everyone else on WinMX wait for a developer that can piece together the info these people sit with and make something useful. Yet when this developer shows up, all this info is held back, and when a programmer asks for help about little tasks that don't require any coding skills, those people who were so eager to help at first, don't help out where they could, and everything is left to the programmer himself..

Here's another example: I experimented with some file transfers and get some help from toad to create a dump of a WinMX file transfer. Once I had examined the dump a bit, I share what I find (I don't like to hold back info like you all do after all), but then all of a sudden, I get banned from the channel in the process of it all. Once again, this demonstrates how you all work against someone that is only trying to help, and how everything gets slowed down. I am going to assume that it was Sharing_Sara who banned me.


Then toad says that all of this is because I approach people in a wrong way. I don't think I have. I wasn't the one that made it all into an unfriendly discussion. As I explained above, in the beginning I was merely discussing some protocol stuff, when everyone freaked out and  decided to fight against me and think of me as someone trying to disrupt things. The only person that has actually said "hey, let's stop this fighting, and start over from scratch without any grudges" is quartz, maybe he is the only one that wants to make progress on WinMX.



Also, I like how you all have misunderstood the bit about who is helping who, and who is begging who for help. Some people think I have begged for help and info figuring out stuff because I wasn't able to work out the stuff myself "aha, there's that 'programmer' that needs help figuring out every little thing he wants to do".
That's a total misunderstanding. I am indeed capable of working out this stuff myself, but why should I waste my time working out something that already exists? I wanted to give the people who were eager to help, a chance to help out in the places where they could. Instead they all made sure to get in the way and left everything to me, myself.
So let me put it this way..  I demand from you, you don't demand from me. I know how to code, you don't. I am not begging for help, I am offering to help. I look down on people, not up to others.


So from now on, I am not going to ask anyone for any help, I am going to do everything from scratch, all by myself.
Instead of asking someone for help to start a file transfer from me, I will set up 2 clients and run the file transfer between them. Instead of asking for a cache tool that already exists, I will code my own. Instead of asking for the protocol format that I don't have yet, I will waste my time figuring it out myself. All the things that have already been done, and are still sitting there waiting to be made use of, are going to be done a second time.

And last but not least, none of you are going to benefit from the work I do. I may create just some "proof of concept" program to demonstrate my potential so you can see my capabilities, but the source of these programs will never be shared, so my code cannot be used in any future WinMX client. Then you can all sit back there and think of that you just lost a potential coder that could have been useful to the WinMX community, if you had only done your bit by offering to help out a bit where you could, and where you were supposed to, instead of working against that coder.
As I expressed in the chat earlier, I don't think you deserve to see any improvements to WinMX at all. Never before have my offers to help out been so little appreciated, so misunderstood, and never have people been so unhelpful. You wanted a programmer, the programmer showed up and offered to help, but the help was not needed/wanted after all, so I assume you are happy with the state of WinMX as it is.

Thanks for nothing, and no thanks.

- Splintered

Offline wonderer

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Re: hello
« Reply #1 on: February 28, 2011, 05:46:33 am »
Imho this is a very negative approach if you are wanting to offer help. I'm a programmer in an entirely different branche and  would very well be able to build a concept, with nice screens, bells and wistles. Even if this would be accepted to be nice looking it would not have any advantage if I would withold the code from the community and only would ask for the internal known requirements to make it all a working program.
Specialy not when you clearly tell it will be closed source known by only you. What WinMx community needs is a programmer willing to share knowledge and then might get knowledge in return. You are demanding knowledge to use for your own benefit and are surprised no one gives home?

My advice, chance attitude and share or just stay away. 

Offline White Stripes

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Re: hello
« Reply #2 on: February 28, 2011, 06:35:26 am »
this thread is gonna get ugly.....

--edit--

i have to admit tho... keeping whatever you make to yourself is going to be useless to other winmx users...
impressive? perhaps... but in the long run... useless... had frontcode released the code to winmx when it shut down we wouldnt be where we are now... stuck with a 7yr old app...

...and somehow i doubt your 'origin story' .... was 'splintered' the name you used 4 years ago? ... or are you someone we already know.. just using a different name for this post and the chatroom?

Offline RebelMX

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Re: hello
« Reply #3 on: February 28, 2011, 07:05:49 am »
Unfortunately Stripes, had Frontcode released the WinMX src there would probably not be a WPN.  Releasing the src means EVERYONE good or bad can see how it works and utilise that.  That means the MPAA (or whatever they call themselves now) as well as people like Josh can use it.

Instead we are in a position where should someone want to use the protocol properly they have to find out for themselves.  Thats not always a bad thing, as even documentation isnt 100% correct.

Re: hello
« Reply #4 on: February 28, 2011, 07:39:20 am »
I am a little dissapointed that after weeks and weeks of suggesting you post some of your questions here on the forum where it could be accessed and perhaps responded to by any number of people within the community, that your first post is of this nature.

I can only hope that at some stage, after the frustration has worn off that you might be able to start a dialouge with some people here and direct your energy constructively.

Offline White Stripes

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Re: hello
« Reply #5 on: February 28, 2011, 08:02:45 am »
@RebelMX; Ares survived such an event... ...and bittorrent is an open standard... and with 7 years under the belt at this point i think the holes/bugs/mpaa/riaa problems would have been long since fixed.... granted it definitly would have been a gamble.. but i think it would have worked...  ....and josh already knows the primary protocol... or at least enough of it to cause serious havoc should he wish to...

Offline bu44er

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Re: hello
« Reply #6 on: February 28, 2011, 08:29:18 am »
First of all, I was not present in the WMW chat room when these conversations where taking place. Therefore I have no idea what was said and who said it.

Personally i strive to see a better Winmx. I am willing to help where ever i can to get this goal achieved. I do not care what other people think of me as long as no damage is done to others and something creative is made.

Over the years, we have had many users / programmers trying to invent something that will make Winmx fresh and new. Features have been spoke about, new clients have been spoke about. However nothing as been produced. Then when someone who as got the knowledge and skills to make something comes along, they get insulted and made to feel like their work is worth nothing.

It's amazing how everyone wants the same goal but they want to go different ways around achieving it. Some people want to take all the credit for themselves and some do need help and want to work as a team.

Splintered as offered as far as i see, a very good offer. I am personally going to help where ever i can.

Splintered, if you would like Dracs cache tool, I have a copy laying around. If you need any help and have any questions, please ask me and i will try my hardest to help you.

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Offline splintered

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Re: hello
« Reply #7 on: February 28, 2011, 01:01:35 pm »
My original idea WAS to share the code and the knowledge, building something new upon the old knowledge that already exists. but after seeing what sort of help I have got, I see no reason to return anything to the community. Sorry, I'd say I have offered to help and share what the community wants and needs, but after all this bullshit, that offer is no longer there. I will not ask for anything, and I will not give anything in return, (hence not sharing the work I intended to share)

Offline GhostShip

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Re: hello
« Reply #8 on: February 28, 2011, 01:53:32 pm »
I'm disappointed you are not being 100% honest with the readers here Splintered , you have been asked to join the forum many times even by myself so we could aid you as we do all budding developers, the whole reason for joining the forum was that unless your a member you cant see the developers section that exists here, something you cant access from the chat rooms.

Some would say its never been your intention to create or share anything you develop, the wmw position remains the same however, help is there for those that request it and follow the directions given, disappointingly had you done so you would not be talking as you are from anger and frustration, up until very recently I was the voice for this sites efforts and thus I feel I should make a statement of some sort here.

The facts are these from my point of view so there is no mistake here, wmw have a developers section for developers not exploit hunters, the developers asked to join are all folks who have demonstrated good will and share the responsibility having extra information brings, if they need help or further information others are here to aid them, you are not the only programmer amongst our ranks as you seem to believe there are in fact at least 10 -15 other developers and a quantity of researchers, some of them including myself have been working on a client project that is going well and will be open src so anyone can work on improvements,  all this is being undertaken without fear or favour here however if you truly want to reinvent the wheel then that's your personal choice, I have seen many people come and go due to their own bad faith actions and poor decision making, its your choice if you wish to be simply "an also ran" or in it for the long haul, while you have been away much has changed and I ask you to do the same, theres no shame in looking inwardly and asking "am I above reproach" in this current situation.

If you believe like Quartz did that you had gotten off on the wrong foot then make it easy for collective wounds to heal, however if your place yourself above all here with talk of "begging" then there really is no place for here you in my mind, this is a community and we stand firm together as equals as we have done so many times across  many years and many sites.

Reevaluate, reappraise and reconsider.

Offline achilles

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Re: hello
« Reply #9 on: February 28, 2011, 05:56:28 pm »
@RebelMX; Ares survived such an event... ...and bittorrent is an open standard... and with 7 years under the belt at this point i think the holes/bugs/mpaa/riaa problems would have been long since fixed.... granted it definitly would have been a gamble.. but i think it would have worked...  ....and josh already knows the primary protocol... or at least enough of it to cause serious havoc should he wish to...
Who is  this Josh you guys keep talking about? How is it that he has this info that could be so deadly to WinMx?
I'm a Hardware, and Cyber Security Guy.

Offline achilles

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Re: hello
« Reply #10 on: February 28, 2011, 06:42:39 pm »
I've been learning some coding just for this, but I want be able to help for a few more years so all I can do is just hope you guys learn to work together in achieving the same goal. I've seen so much bickering on the forum lately. I don't see how anything gets done. Splintered, why did you not want to join the forum to access the developers area? Are you saying you were not offered? I have no knowledge of the matter. If you guys can't agree on what the new client should consist of as far a protocols, and other matters then I suggest that you work in groups with those that agree with the protocols you want to be in the knew client.  If there is enough programmers in the community to draw from then work in groups with the programmers that have the same ideal's you have for what's best for the new client. A little team competition isn't bad. It will help drive you to do better. The only thing is that if two clients were created there would have to be an agreement one certain protocols so that any client created would be compatible with a user using another client. If client A & B were created then A may have certain additional features or tools that B may not offer, but they are still completely compatible in that both user's of client A & B are able to share files with one another, and trade even though they are running a different version of the client.  Each client may have its strengths and weaknesses when compared to one another. Each may have its own toys to play with.   I mean look at how many e-mule clients  there are.  I use e-mule Xtreme Mod  and it's a masterpiece, but their are lots of mods to choose from as well. If you have 5 programers working in one group, and 5 in the other group that does not mean you guys have to dislike the programmers that are not in your group.  It just means the people that are not working in your group will be more valuable in the other group because they have similar ideals.  I don't believe it would be the end of all things as long as both groups agreed on integral or imperative protocols that must be the same for the good of making sure the network is not damaged due to users having different clients that are not compatible with other user's in the network.  Take a look at what they have done with e-mule -http://www.emule-mods.de/. They made the network work with many different clients. I may not have the programming knowledge to pull this off myself, but I do know that as long as certain protocols are maintained in all clients then all clients will be compatible with one another. On client may have bells, and whistles that another does not have and Vs but if certain protocols are the same then it can be done.   Works in groups withthose that have the same ideal as you or whatever you have to do, but stop the bickering. If you guys can agree on fundamental protocols to make sure all clients created are compatible with one another, and work in groups with those that have the same ideal as you then a lot more is going to get done. I'm been rambling about the same thing so i'm going to quit now. I just want to see you guys get along.
I'm a Hardware, and Cyber Security Guy.

Offline GhostShip

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Re: hello
« Reply #11 on: February 28, 2011, 07:18:28 pm »
I,m not sure what to say Achilles, there is no bickering amongst the client group we cant however stop ppl making drama nor do we wish to be involved in it as its time stolen from doing the work we have promised you all to complete.

The community client is more advanced than the pen and paper stage and is at least 50%+ completed that's all anyone really wants to know and all we wish to say till the alphas and betas are released. We welcome competition and will always offer help when we see its required to aid a fellow winmx developer, our project follows the known winmx protocols and thus will be compatible with existing clients/servers/winmx, the project is however part of a larger aim to upgrade and improve once we have something to improve upon  8)

Less panic and more confidence folks  :yes:

Online Will

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Re: hello
« Reply #12 on: February 28, 2011, 07:26:50 pm »
I,m not sure what to say Achilles, there is no bickering amongst the client group we cant however stop ppl making drama nor do we wish to be involved in it as its time stolen from doing the work we have promised you all to complete.

The community client is more advanced than the pen and paper stage and is at least 50%+ completed thats all anyone really wants to know and all we wish to say till the alphas and betas are released. We welcome competition and will always offer help when we see its required to aid a fellow winmx developer, our project follows the known winmx protocols and thus will be compatible with existing clients/servers/winmx, the project is however part of a larger aim to upgrade and improve once we have something to improve upon  8)

Less panic and more confidence folks  :yes:


And you forgot to mention that it is made to look and function as much like the official client as possible :-D

Offline White Stripes

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Re: hello
« Reply #13 on: March 01, 2011, 03:54:02 am »
Quote
Who is  this Josh you guys keep talking about?
very long time winmx user ... admin of a popular channel from times past...

Quote
How is it that he has this info that could be so deadly to WinMx?
old tools, trial and error, programming...

josh is a tinkerer whose heart is in the right place but whose head not always is....
see this post; http://forum.winmxworld.com/index.php/topic,10597.0.html  (the thread meandered off topic a bit) -- 'Beib' is Josh...
..the data collector -- basically an EKG for the WPN -- is a head in the right place moment...

note: 'joshua203' is a different josh...


@Admin; yes i know this is a really odd thread to post this info... feel free to chide me should i be in the wrong ;)

Offline Joshua203

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Re: hello
« Reply #14 on: March 02, 2011, 02:39:45 pm »
note: 'joshua203' is a different josh...
Thank you for mentioning that to avoid confusion Stripes  :bow:
however I would not mind having some of his skills to use for the good of MX  :D
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Offline Bluey_412

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Re: hello
« Reply #15 on: March 06, 2011, 12:32:05 am »
I think that one point has been missed too...

Most users in this forum discussion, room admins, core group, developers, etc etc etc have kinda been ACTIVELY around winmx for a while.

When Splintered first appeared, his entry and discussion activity was to jump in, boots and all, and be wanting info, making discussions etc, as if he was an old hand that we all knew, whereas those of us present had to take his word for it that he had indeed been around awhile.

This raises much suspicion, it would have been better if he was more 'socially involved' awhile before delving, so that the 'We' would have gotten to know him a little better. There was lots of 'Who the hell is this guy?' traffic going on in PM i am sure...

WinMX is indeed a little bit of a social world as well as a file-sharing and teching world, and it sure helps heaps to enter a room, say g'day, and share some gossip before demanding access to the innermost workings of the toy.
What you think is important is rarely urgent
But what you think is Urgent is rarely important

Just remember that...

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