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WinMX World :: Forum  |  WinMX Help  |  Chat Issues  |  Why Ip Address?
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Author Topic: Why Ip Address?  (Read 15685 times)

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Offline Me Here

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Why Ip Address?
« Reply #20 on: December 06, 2005, 11:16:43 pm »
Ok Guest,

This means that more then likely your ports have become blocked, this can be due to changing things in the WinMX Settings Incoming TCP and IN/OUT UDP, make sure those are set to the same ports you have previously and that they are set to 'Listen on' and 'Send and Receive on' ...

If those have not changed you will have to look at other causes to why this suddenly happened, it may be a coinsidence even, but make sure if you have rules set in your router that your Internal IP of that particular machine has not changed, and that the rules are still there with the correct ports.

If the router looks right try unplugging it for a full minute to reset the settings.

Also make sure if your on XP that your firewall is either off if you dont use it normally or that the ports you have allowed there are correct also.

In one of these areas is where these ports get blocked usually so take a few minutes to check those out and let me know what you find..

guest

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« Reply #21 on: December 07, 2005, 11:21:45 am »
hmmmm unplugged router, turned off firewall nothing happend....installed new patch 2.8....restarted comp this morning....primary very slow as if sticking.....and i wondered wot the symbols have anything to do with it...at the moment P=5 S=0 smp=84 the smp was 4 numbers yesterday lol

think i might give this up :(

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« Reply #22 on: December 07, 2005, 02:47:40 pm »
thank you for ur help much appreciated :)

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Why Ip Address?
« Reply #23 on: December 07, 2005, 03:18:37 pm »
Hi Guest,

Those symbols do have to do with it but they are only showing you what we already know really...

P=5 is the primaries
S=0 are the secondaries.. without the correct ports open something is blocking this.
spm= various numbers are the searches per minute, again your numbers are low indicating a blocked port.

Those that I gave you above are the usual places of blocking, so one of those is misconfigured, its frustraiting sometimes though to find which one and fix it..

guessed

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Re: Why Ip Address?
« Reply #24 on: January 11, 2006, 02:51:47 am »
Quote from: WWEFreak666
this is something i don't understand.. you enter a room or if the host or any admin types like for RCMS or a command like !printip 555.555.555 its really annoying i don't know why they need to make it so every sees your IP.. Winmx needs to change that because more people are getting hacked by the day. :cry:


Facilitating getting hacked is definitely a concern, expecially since new exploitable vulnerabilities in M$ OSs seem to be revealed regularly.

But most of the admins here seem to be disinterested in personal privacy.  For whatever reason, whether the cultural conditioning or such, they seem clueless about this or just have no sensitivity for it.

Of note, in the USA, the laws make specific reference to publishing or exposing a person's IP to others:

Quote
"SEC. 2000A. CLARIFICATION THAT PROGRAMS RELATING TO VIOLENCE AGAINST WOMEN ARE GENDER-NEUTRAL.

      `In this part, and in any other Act of Congress, unless the context unequivocally requires otherwise, a provision authorizing or requiring the Department of Justice to make grants, or to carry out other activities, for assistance to victims of domestic violence, dating violence, stalking, sexual assault, or trafficking in persons, shall be construed to cover grants that provide assistance to female victims, male victims, or both.

`SEC. 2000B. DEFINITIONS THAT APPLY TO ANY PROVISION CARRIED OUT BY VIOLENCE AGAINST WOMEN OFFICE.

      `(a) In General- In this part, and in any violence against women provision, unless the context unequivocally requires otherwise, the following definitions apply:

***             (16) PERSONALLY IDENTIFYING INFORMATION OR PERSONAL INFORMATION- The term `personally identifying information' or `personal information' means individually identifying information for or about an individual including information likely to disclose the location of a victim of domestic violence, dating violence, sexual assault, or stalking, including--

                  `(A) a first and last name;

                  `(B) a home or other physical address;

                  `(C) contact information (including a postal, e-mail or Internet protocol address, or telephone or facsimile number);

                  `(D) a social security number; and

                  `(E) any other information, including date of birth, racial or ethnic background, or religious affiliation, that, in combination with any of subparagraphs (A) through (D), would serve to identify any individual.


http://yro.slashdot.org/yro/06/01/09/1520222.shtml?tid=153

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Why Ip Address?
« Reply #25 on: January 11, 2006, 06:59:49 am »
More assumptions guessed?

I am curious what gives you cause to assume that the admins of the site have no interest in personal online privacy?

We recommend you use the protections available, we make no promises that  
if you choose not to use those protections your safe.

As Nobby pointed out the only way to guarantee 100% online privacy is to unplug the cord from the wall... :wink:

I respect your right to your opinions of the policy of admins of rooms having IPs, but suggest you keep comments like the above about the admins of this site to factual based ones.

KM

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Why Ip Address?
« Reply #26 on: January 11, 2006, 07:26:51 am »
someone knowing one of the IP Addresses owned by your ISP does not identify you, it does not somehow make someone able to access your computer, it does nothing except identify who your ISP is

having the IP address you are currently using posted on a website or in a chat room does not make your computer any more vulnerable to attack at all, and does not in any way identify you - the only case where it would identify you is if you had been allocated the IP Address yourself directly, in which case you would have to have a substantial number of servers, and would either be very rich or own a business, in which case your identity being known would not be a concern, and if it was you would simply save the money and use standard IP Addresses from a normal ISP's pool, rather than getting a subnet allocated to yourself

Anonymous

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Why Ip Address?
« Reply #27 on: January 11, 2006, 02:00:10 pm »
Quote from: Me Here
More assumptions guessed?

I am curious what gives you cause to assume that the admins of the site have no interest in personal online privacy?

We recommend you use the protections available, we make no promises that  if you choose not to use those protections your safe.

As Nobby pointed out the only way to guarantee 100% online privacy is to unplug the cord from the wall... :wink:

I respect your right to your opinions of the policy of admins of rooms having IPs, but suggest you keep comments like the above about the admins of this site to factual based ones.


This applies to both room admins and website admins.

And just so you don't think I am a vladd partisan, I think he is a violator of this on his wpn channel.  He has it so the IP of each one that joins is exposed to all others in the room.  That is a no-no in my book, a basic violation of personal privacy.

My assessment of the admins position on this here is not mere assumption at all - but rather based on very specific detailed observations from the posts of the admins here as is evidenced by KM's reply also.

This has been discussed in detail before and my comments are based on the replies of the admins here, not simply assumptions.  Baytsp says on their webpages that learning a person's IP is the most important thing they do.  Get a clue yet?

All of your comments seeme to fall back to .. 'chill out.  just because they know your IP doesn't mean they can hack into your computer--  run protection.. blah blah blah..'  that is only 1 of several concerns about IP exposure.. and it relates to system security, not user privacy.

Virtually all detection/stalking relates to recording date, time and IP with some other data..  I have NEVER seen in all of the posts about exposing an IP I have read by the admins here any recognition or concern expressed over user privacy..

Quote
Having your ip of your computer is no more dangerous than that.. I can get your ip from this forum but it doesnt let me into your computer especially if you have even the slightest firewall pertection up..( Which is like having locks on your door). Its just common sense to have locks..


see my point?  No mention of privacy concerns.  There are other dangers besides hacking.  It has nothing to do with locks or firewalls or AV.

I have never seen an admin here warn users about how an IP can be used to facilitate cyberstalking or tracing.  Certainly not all risks can be avoided if one is downloading or uploading.  Those engaging in that will expose their IP to others.  ICQ has a popup warning to alert its users to this.  If you try to send or recieve a file over ICQ, it pops up a waring saying something like:
Quote
"If you do this, your IP will be exposed to the other party.  Are you sure you want to continue?"


There are hundreds of sites offering IP anonymizing services, so one can surf the web without exposing their IP to webmasters etc.  Why?  What's the point if there is no threat?  It has nothing to do with hacking.  It is about privacy, stalking, profiling.  Yet when ever this issue comes up. these important factors are never mentioned.. the focus is limited to only hacking and even that risk is poohpoohed as not important if one has protection.

All my point is that there are OTHER risks to having ones IP exposed and your replies never sem to inform users of any of them.

The USA law about cyberstalking would not have listed one's IP as a personal identifying factor if it could not be used as such.  I still can't fathom why this fact is continually ignored here.  Not just ignored, but aggressively dismissed as insignificant.

If I was the type to play such games, and decided to mess with you.. When I learned your IP from joining a chat channel I could nuke you off the web.  All I need to know is your IP shown on joining the room.. and poof.. you wouldn't know what hit you or from where.  The attack would not be easily tracable because I wouldn't use my own IP in the packets.  I know such packets can be traced and I wouldn't want them pointing back to me, so they would have to look like they came from someone else.. maybe even from the IP of someone you think is your friend in the chatroom.  Spoof their IP on the packets and get a twofer..  your friend takes the rap.

What are the risks if an RIAA detective is in or RUNNING a chatroom that broadcasts the IP of those joining?

What are the risks for stalking/profiling of someone by exposing the IP of those who post to all comers?

All I am saying is you are doing a disservice by actively minimizing the dangers of exposing ones IP publicly, whether broadcast on web forums or in chatrooms.

And for downloading, why is their so much activity on creating traceless means of sharing, that do not expose the downloaders IP to the uploader and vice versa.  People should be informed, not misimformed.

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Why Ip Address?
« Reply #28 on: January 11, 2006, 03:12:51 pm »
Look guessed, I am a bit confused here.  I realize your point of view on this, because without even looking at anything but your posting I can tell that this is not your first visit to the site, nor this thread.

So we have already had this discussion and I just sorta wonder why your posting as if you have seen this for the first time... anyway.

As I have said, this is not the first time we have discussed this, i doubt seriously that your views have changed or that ours have either.

KM

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Why Ip Address?
« Reply #29 on: January 11, 2006, 06:06:12 pm »
if you have an IP Address then why are you currently using a bell south IP Address?

I very much doubt you have an IP Address yourself, you are simply using one of your ISPs, and as I said what is the privacy concern with someone knowing your ISP?

I am currently using Blueyonder to connect to the Internet... oh no, now you know my name address telephone number and credit card numbers...

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Why Ip Address?
« Reply #30 on: January 11, 2006, 06:39:48 pm »
lmao KM

KM

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Why Ip Address?
« Reply #31 on: January 11, 2006, 06:46:15 pm »
what? you do know that every blueyonder user has the same name address telephone number and credit card numbers...?

Anonymous

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Why Ip Address?
« Reply #32 on: January 12, 2006, 02:54:08 pm »
Quote from: KM
if you have an IP Address then why are you currently using a bell south IP Address?

I very much doubt you have an IP Address yourself, you are simply using one of your ISPs, and as I said what is the privacy concern with someone knowing your ISP?

I am currently using Blueyonder to connect to the Internet... oh no, now you know my name address telephone number and credit card numbers...


Silly.. everyone on the net has an IP address.  And the bellsouth IP I happen to be using at eh moment is not my home IP as I am away and visiting others and using computer access where I find it.

And it is not just knowing one's ISP.  It is knowing the specific IP that one was using at a specific point in time and how.  And that becomes a piece of profilable information.  Searches can then be made to see what other uses have been made from that IP and more pieces of the profile puzzle are collected.  And on it goes.  Get it yet?

Simply amazing KM.  But your disdain for the significance of this continues to reinforce my concerns about having someone like you in any control or administrative capacity for a p2p network like WPN.  How can you be trusted to write your programs or design your services so as to protect users' privacy when it is of so little concern to you?

Either you are clueless to the dangers of data mining, profiling and cyberstalking, or worse, you could care less, dismissing them as inconsequential.

Either way, this continued trivialization of valid concerns merely reinforces  concerns over your ability, judgement and trustworthyness as to protecting the privacy of those who use your programs or services.

It seems that you refuse to appraise yourself of the pertainent facts and choose to remain either ignorant or defiant or both.

Well, as they say, "You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make it drink."

For others [and KM too!], I suggest you Google "cyberstalking profiling" to see how simply learning one's IP [while NOT the full exposure of one's identity] is a critical tidbit of information that is used by criminal investigators, RIAA type enforcers, political enemies, and personal stalkers, etc.

Once you understand the concept, then you are in a better position to make informed decisions on how best to preserve your own anononymity while online.  You can then take steps to protect your personal identity information because it should be obvious by now that you can't rely on all room admins and all web admins and all p2p network admins to be concerned with your best interests.

Offline Bearded Blunder

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Why Ip Address?
« Reply #33 on: January 12, 2006, 04:06:47 pm »
If you're THAT worried about your IP being known, I suggest you unplug your modem & keep it that way EVERY transaction OF ANY SORT online requires your IP address, or you will get no information back, the server you contacted won't know where to send it.

Displaying or not displaying your IP will make no difference to anyone competant to do anything with the information, they can obtain it in any event (it's far from difficult to do so).
Blessed is he who expecteth nothing, for he shall not be disappointed.

Anonymous

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Why Ip Address?
« Reply #34 on: January 12, 2006, 04:55:18 pm »
Quote from: Bearded Blunder
If you're THAT worried about your IP being known, I suggest you unplug your modem & keep it that way EVERY transaction OF ANY SORT online requires your IP address, or you will get no information back, the server you contacted won't know where to send it.

Displaying or not displaying your IP will make no difference to anyone competant to do anything with the information, they can obtain it in any event (it's far from difficult to do so).


I take it you did not google either "cyberstalking" "profiling" or "data mining" or comprehend the contents of the search results on those topics.

"Expose yourself or unplug" is worthless, inane, stupid, dangerous 'advice'.  One does not need to make that compromise.

One does not have to give up internet access to maintain reasonable privacy.  Your oft used silly cliche infers one has no right to privacy or means to achieve it if they choose to use the internet.  I obviously disagree.

The fact that some know or can know one's IP is far different from publishing it to all.

If I choose to access a webpage, without using some anonymizing method to mask my IP, I accept that I am willingly exposing my IP to the admin of the server hosting the webpage.  But that is far different from a webpage listing the IPs of the last 100 visitors and the IPs current 35 viewer of the webpage.

All I am saying is that there are privacy issues involved, whether joining a chatroom or accessing a webpage, or sharing files.  Being told that there are none is a lie.  Being told that you have to accept them is a lie.  Being told that there is nothing you can do to limit risk exposure is a lie.  The fact that it may be difficult and in some cases near impossible to totally hide ones IP is not the issue.  The issue is that it is in fact a threat and once educated, the user can take some steps to partially limit the scope of such threat.

Ever heard of proxies?  of web anonomyzing services?  of data mining?  of profiling?  of stalking?  of social engineering?  of spying?  of infiltration? of encryption? of paranoia?  :p

Offline Bearded Blunder

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Why Ip Address?
« Reply #35 on: January 12, 2006, 06:09:18 pm »
Heard of all those things.. did YOU read the disclaimer when you opened chat? It says winmx chat is UNMODERATED.. you live with what the room hosts do, or you don't use those rooms... that's YOUR choice, nobody can or will force a host not to post IP on entry if they want to, you don't like it, you proxy (quite possible, even easy, with winmx or web chat) or you avoid the issue by staying out, and again.. even WITHOUT it posted, your IP is NOT difficult to determine in these rooms, don't like it, don't use them, that simple.

Paranoia I certainly heard of.. you seem to be a sufferer.
Blessed is he who expecteth nothing, for he shall not be disappointed.

KM

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Why Ip Address?
« Reply #36 on: January 12, 2006, 07:18:50 pm »
82.33.3.60

now tell everyone my deepest darkest secrets... well you have my ISP's IP Address, so go tell everyone...

all that tells you is that Blueyonder is my ISP, in the case of my ISP that can also make you 95% sure of the region I am in (as my ISP uses separate subnets for different regions - however few ISPs do that, as most are just selling other companies DSL lines or whatever)

guessed

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Why Ip Address?
« Reply #37 on: January 13, 2006, 03:05:25 am »
Quote from: Bearded Blunder
Heard of all those things.. did YOU read the disclaimer when you opened chat? It says winmx chat is UNMODERATED.. you live with what the room hosts do, or you don't use those rooms... that's YOUR choice, nobody can or will force a host not to post IP on entry if they want to, you don't like it, you proxy (quite possible, even easy, with winmx or web chat) or you avoid the issue by staying out, and again.. even WITHOUT it posted, your IP is NOT difficult to determine in these rooms, don't like it, don't use them, that simple.

Paranoia I certainly heard of.. you seem to be a sufferer.


Just because I may be paranoid doesn't mean they are not really after me. :p

Thank you for making part of my point.

I do not recall whether or not it warns that the host and perhaps some high level admins will be able to directly see ones IP on join [like the ICQ type warnings that certain actions will reveal one's IP to others].

Informing the user of this danger is all I was asking.  Then it is up to the user to decide whether or not they want to accept the risk.  To claim there is no risk, to repeatedly deny there is none is what I have issue with.

I will admit that the risks of profiling and spying are far less in winmx chatrooms than simply connecting to an opennap server running slavanap.  SlavaNAP opennap server are an RIAA detective's wet dream.    

The admin of a slavanap server can:
1]  see and log the date time and IP of each one connecting to the server
2]  see and log the search words a user tries
3]  see and log the time, name and size of a file being transferred along with the nick's of both the sender and the recipient of said file
4]  can 'cloak' and join a private chatroom invisible to those in the room and log everything they are saying.

But do those that connect to such spy-ridden server get warned about all this?

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Why Ip Address?
« Reply #38 on: January 13, 2006, 07:03:19 am »
Guessed,

I have no doubts that your concerns are valid, I don't believe I ever said they weren't, after all I am a victim of stalking my self, not online but non the less.  But I guess I didn't appreciate your comments (obviously directed at KMs views but labeled as 'the site admins here').

A quick read through this shows that I and others here including KM, have said that its going to depend on other factors besides just knowing your IP address.  

Most importantly I think its worth a mention that running into someone with the know how to do this, and gain enough information about you to succeed in stalking you is a major factor.  
My point is I am not going to sit here and say its not possible however, in my original analogy I did say that the average admin of a room on WinMx knowing your IP is not a as serious a danger as your portraying either.
 I definitely know some dangerous folks on WinMx and they make it their business to help instruct users on how to best protect themselves against such things.  I am neither disinterested in personal privacy nor clueless, and don't appreciate your insinuations that we are.

I am not going to scare users into thinking that its anymore dangerous then it is, you like myself in my own stalking incident ran into the wrong person with the wrong information and that can happen to anyone, but there are precautions.

So what I propose is that if its a concern of yours and a passion to increase online security then lets have a page on it.  Write up some things you think are helpful tips esp those related to WinMx or p2p use and try not to make them scare the hell outta anyone..lol...  and send them to me, lets inform users but lets be realistic about it also.

Maybe between your views and my views we can make sure folks do stay safe but are not frozen with fear of chat and other uses of WinMx. :wink:

guessed

  • Guest
Why Ip Address?
« Reply #39 on: January 13, 2006, 01:21:45 pm »
Quote from: Me Here
Guessed,

I have no doubts that your concerns are valid, I don't believe I ever said they weren't, after all I am a victim of stalking my self, not online but non the less.  But I guess I didn't appreciate your comments (obviously directed at KMs views but labeled as 'the site admins here').


I'm sorry, but I did in fact mean 'site admins', at least some of them, not just KM.  I can't say all, because I don't know who all of them are and therefore don't recall if all had expressed similar opinions.  But at least 2 others besides KM have commented on this with the same tone, in a manner I read as trivializing or denying the risks As I perceive them.  This goes back to a similar thread many months ago too, and is not limited to just the posts on this specific thread.

I do tend to be blunt, brutally honest.. it's that INTJ thang :)  And KM does  draw more attention at times because he is at a different level of the food chain.  He is not just a forum admin, commentator, but is actively involved in writing programs and running services related to p2p.  [And truth be known, this dispute did begin with him, from the way he ran the old forum on his kingmacro web site, which he programmed to show publicly the IP of every one that posted a message, except himself.]  Now, as a p2p programmer and provider of WPN services, many people are relying on him to protect their interests, so that raises the bar.  And yes, it bothers me that he does not agree with me on this so I do tend to be a gadfly and try to provoke some deeper thought on his part.  My methods are apparently poor because he is still resistant :)

I may be a privacy freak, but think it is with good reason in this day and age.  Some time ago, I clicked the 'show full path' button on some searches [a feature I seldom used].  Right away I was bothered by what I saw.  All too often it seems some users were sharing files from the windows default folders.. I saw things like "C:\Documents and Settings\Janine\My Documents\My Music\madonna....mp3"  Sending a private message to LadyLuck123_45678 saying "Hi Janine.. I think madonna is great too" Would likely produce the responce "Who are YOU??  and how did you know my name?!?!?"  So I promptly sent an email to the winmx dev team, expressing my concerns over displaying the full path info.  I could see no purpose in revealing the full path, but did see the exposure of personal information, but as typical I never heard back.  I only learned this week, from replies in another thread about fake files, that winmx dev team took my complaint seriously and changed that behavior on the v3.54 betas.  A browser can no longer see the full path of files shared by those using v3.54.  That full path info could also be used by RIAA detectives should they wish to target a specific user and document evidence that may be used against them.

Quote from: Me Here
A quick read through this shows that I and others here including KM, have said that its going to depend on other factors besides just knowing your IP address.


Yes, but then it was dismissed.  It was not explained that the IP is a significant part of a puzzle and could be used to collect other pieces to build a more full profile.

Quote from: Me Here
Most importantly I think its worth a mention that running into someone with the know how to do this, and gain enough information about you to succeed in stalking you is a major factor.  
My point is I am not going to sit here and say its not possible however, in my original analogy I did say that the average admin of a room on WinMx knowing your IP is not a as serious a danger as your portraying either.
 I definitely know some dangerous folks on WinMx and they make it their business to help instruct users on how to best protect themselves against such things.  I am neither disinterested in personal privacy nor clueless, and don't appreciate your insinuations that we are.

I am not going to scare users into thinking that its anymore dangerous then it is, you like myself in my own stalking incident ran into the wrong person with the wrong information and that can happen to anyone, but there are precautions.


Point taken about technical ability, but it isn't really all that complicated.  I noted earlier a simple example.  I was posting to a forum that did attach the IP to each post.  I used a different nick, persona than i use in other circles.  Another forum poster didn't like what I posted because it exposed a flaw in her post.  So she decided to pry, based on my IP.  She apparently was an admin of an opennap server I happened to be connected to.  She used her opennap admin powers to search for my IP there.  Once she saw a match, she then knew the nick I was using, and then posted my opennap nick back to the other forum.

There are many types of stalkers and profilers.  They may be sexual predators or bullies seeking victims, corporate police trying to protect their 'intellectual property', state police tracking activists and dissidents, etc.

Let's use RIAA as an example.  Say I was an outspoken advocate of open sharing of anything and was providing tools and tips how to do this.  And I was spouting off on a forum that happened to reveal my IP publicly.  With that they can go to work, using all their resources to try to catch me in the act so they can take me down, make an example of me.  It wouldn't matter that I used a different persona on the forum from the p2p nets.. the IP provides the common link.

Now if the forum doesn't publish my IP, then I am much more anonymous and don't feel the need to chill my speech.  They can't then make any connection between my overt activism that got their attention and my p2p activities that may be actionable.  The more pieces of the puzzle that are missing, the harder it is for 'them' to clearly see the full picture.

Quote from: Me Here
So what I propose is that if its a concern of yours and a passion to increase online security then lets have a page on it.  Write up some things you think are helpful tips esp those related to WinMx or p2p use and try not to make them scare the hell outta anyone..lol...  and send them to me, lets inform users but lets be realistic about it also.

Maybe between your views and my views we can make sure folks do stay safe but are not frozen with fear of chat and other uses of WinMx. :wink:


Sounds like progress :)

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