WinMX World :: Forum

Third Party Stuff => Other Software => Topic started by: whohas on June 01, 2008, 11:07:57 pm

Title: 3rd party winmx replacement?
Post by: whohas on June 01, 2008, 11:07:57 pm
I have done some research though perhaps not enough, I am not sure, however my question is posted as such :

Since the last talk of winmx 4 years ago by FrontCode before abandoning the winmx project (http://www.slyck.com/story355_WinMX_Interview) nothing has been done to updating winmx since they did not release the source code, and very little updates to some popular 3rd party download/upload managers such as mxmoni or mxlinks.

I am curious however why if winmx still has millions of users (mostly in japan) why nobody has thought about making a "new" winmx replacement program that can connect to the same winmx cache servers and be compatible with winmx client users so as not to alienate its users.

There is potentially a huge list of very useful changes that could be applied to winmx that probably would of been done if the project wasn't abandoned. (like the 2gb limit, one example)

I am not a programmer and have poor knowledge of it so I am not sure how difficult this may be to produce, if even possible.

Anybody know why nobody has attempted this?
Title: Re: 3rd party winmx replacement?
Post by: GhostShip on June 02, 2008, 12:18:16 am
The main problem is that winmx had a proprietory encryption scheme unlike most of the other protocols around at the time and programmers have always been in short supply.

Currently both of these problems are resolving themselves with two projects in production now, both projects are being undertaken by volunteers who work as and when time allows to complete clients for our future, there is no emergency at this time so its all relaxed and much discusion goes into the technical implementation and from this we all profit in terms of building more information for those following the same path.

I would like to make clear that the last winmx versions came out in late december 2004 and winmx closed in sep 2005 which is not a very long time ago and since then the only thing that hasnt changed is the client, many of the third party projects have altered dramatically and incorporate enhancements not though of back then.

The old saying "if it aint broke, dont fix it" is a great description of winmx 3.54b4, the new clients are being built purely to ensure we will never have to face another closure brought upon by the abuse of the legal system by the recording industry, they have done their worst and not only have we prevailed, but by utilising the talent pool within the community we are now regaining ground.
Title: Re: 3rd party winmx replacement?
Post by: SamSeeSam on June 02, 2008, 07:54:57 am
"proprietory encryption"

Does that mean that the protocol is owned by frontcode and consequently its not legal to develop code based on it..

Cheers :P
Title: Re: 3rd party winmx replacement?
Post by: GhostShip on June 02, 2008, 09:49:36 am
That could be the case if they had published it somewhere Sam, whilst the protocol and more importantly the wimx.exe source code remains unpublished however they can have no claim to anyone creating something similar to something they have never released, same story with the peer caches.

I like to think that Winmx Tech is under a legal gagging order to sit on their codebase and info, and that by reinventing that info to sustain the network a few smiling faces are to be seen in Canada.
Title: Re: 3rd party winmx replacement?
Post by: Mick832 on June 02, 2008, 11:52:06 am
"a "new" winmx replacement program that can connect to the same winmx cache servers and be compatible with winmx client users so as not to alienate its users."

I would always consider a winmx replacement as risky, as there would always be people who would look for other programs.   When winmx first crashed, the room I was in looked at alternatives, such as Ares and Filetopia to list a couple, however not each program suited each member of our room.   I would think a winmx replacement could further split winmx users, some going to the replacement, some going to other programs, and some refusing to leave winmx.   I would only consider a replacement program if winmx was no longer viable.   The program itself is fine, as long as we can connect.   Maybe alternative peer cache technology would be more benificial in the long run in case of future problems.
Title: Re: 3rd party winmx replacement?
Post by: Lagerlout666 on June 02, 2008, 12:18:50 pm
The new client will completly interoperate with the current network mick. It will solely be your choice which you want to use, Just i know once a new client is made stuff like third party MxMONI and bendmx can all be integrated into the client itself. Which as you know will then start to make the 3.54 series start to appear outdated. Also once this client is built tactics to beat throttling can be implemented, for many winmx is becoming useless due to this process and if a new client is finished and this throtling defeated you will probbaly find alot of people make the move.

Title: Re: 3rd party winmx replacement?
Post by: $i£ve®$haÐów on June 02, 2008, 02:18:09 pm
Quote
Also once this client is built tactics to beat throttling can be implemented, for many winmx is becoming useless due to this process



i for 1 will be very excited about this. :lol:
Title: Re: 3rd party winmx replacement?
Post by: Lagerlout666 on June 02, 2008, 03:29:02 pm
Well addons etc are a way off yet, but thier are two very active developments you should be able to follow,

One is MoonMX being developed by SirMoon. A link is here http://forum.winmxworld.com/index.php/topic,6221.0.html

The other is WinPY by String
http://forum.winmxworld.com/index.php/topic,6593.0.html

Both developers are extremly active and are flying along, we tend not to hype early starts as this just puts added pressure on a already difficult challenge an im sure you will agree why we do this.

As far as i know both developers are going along the opensource route. But thier are others more in the loop than myself that may want to come forward and let you know a few more details. Nothing like a scoop lol.
Title: Re: 3rd party winmx replacement?
Post by: Mick832 on June 03, 2008, 01:17:37 am
"The new client will completly interoperate with the current network mick."

Then it will just be like a new version in a way, those who wish to update will.  Much the same as there are still people who don't use 3.54beta, prefering to stick with older versions.
Title: Re: 3rd party winmx replacement?
Post by: GhostShip on June 03, 2008, 05:02:08 am
All developers are aware their offerings have to reach a certain "interest" level to entice folks to utilise them, new features will be the key selling point.

I,m sure we all agree the network has been durable and yet able to continue evolving, despite tremendous hurdles, no one need have any fear that they will be "left out in the cold" if they dont choose to update as and when a new compatible version arrives, much of the discussion that has gone on is focused on ensuring no problems will be created for existing users, that responsibility is taken very seriously and always in the forefront of the programmers minds, they are a community that seeks solutions, not to create further problems.     
Title: Re: 3rd party winmx replacement?
Post by: whohas on July 21, 2009, 02:56:48 pm
Hi guys, I checked winmx the other day and was surprized to find so many people still online actively using it to share files!

I am a very patient person, but another year passes and there has been zero development from anybody with making an alternate stable client to run on the current WPN cache servers.


There are still LOTS of people using winmx sharing lots of files, and until winmx stops working forever, most people still using winmx are unlikely to "switch" to different new network to share these files, regardless of how many benefits they will get by doing so from the new technology and features.

So the way I see it, the only option is to develop new client on this network or continue to use this very flawed client forever more. (please noo!)


I have done some research and found several projects that have started and been abandoned.  I still find it amazing that of the millions of people (mostly from japan) who still use winmx, that there is not ONE single person who can write a client to run on the WPN network, is it really that difficult to write such a program?

The amount of other p2p software I have seen come and go run on other networks like fasttrack, gnutella etc.. since winmx was abandoned is quite allot.   If all these other clients are created to run on other networks so easily, why is it so hard to make one for the WPN network?


So far this is what info I have gathered for WPN client projects to date, correct me if I am wrong or missing any out. (abandoned = over year no progress) :


  MoonMX  --  abandoned  (http://forum.winmxworld.com/index.php/topic,6221.0.html)

  WinPY -- abandoned  (http://forum.winmxworld.com/index.php/topic,6593.0.html)

  CrossMX  --  abandoned  (http://forum.winmxworld.com/index.php/topic,4482.0.html)

  Winzo  --  abandoned  (http://forum.winmxworld.com/index.php/topic,2063.0.html)


If somebody did start to develop a new client I would personally be very happy to help them in the development process as much as possible (eg bug reports, testing in different enviroments, new ideas, doing the homepage etc...).  I have lots of spare time but unfortunately don't know anything about programming.

Or, should we all just give up and move on?  Your thoughts please.
Title: Re: 3rd party winmx replacement?
Post by: Forested665 on July 21, 2009, 03:40:08 pm
WinPy works but the primary protocal is kept underwraps, the same goes for the others.
Crossmx was believed to be a hoax, as no screenshots were posted and all the code "got lost"
Title: Re: 3rd party winmx replacement?
Post by: birdman on July 21, 2009, 03:42:35 pm
The closest thing i have seen to a new winmx client is the W.P.C.C chat client by Emulator it looks and feels just like winmx but with the ability to share files and use primary connection, the way it was being developed i thought it may have become a new winmx but sadly not. I know ghostship has a new client in the works but has asked for help to deliver it sooner but so far i have seen no offers of help being made on the forum in regards helping programe it.
Title: Re: 3rd party winmx replacement?
Post by: Forested665 on July 21, 2009, 04:17:21 pm
thats because the requests arent made on the forums. Wmw and GS both exist outside of this area you know?
Title: Re: 3rd party winmx replacement?
Post by: birdman on July 21, 2009, 05:22:13 pm
Ghostship did make a request for help in the "twitter" thread, maybe its just a case of yeh there is many programers in the winmx comunity but non with the ability to make a new client to replace winmx or maybe not the time either way i personaly see no possible new client in the near futureother than the one ghostship is making which he said doing on his own is going to take a year
Title: Re: 3rd party winmx replacement?
Post by: GhostShip on July 21, 2009, 06:05:48 pm
I have always thought that the hurdles to client production all stem from the same route cause, mainly lack of WPN network knowledge.

I,m pretty confident we have a fair understanding of how things operate and I myself have made some material available to the community coders to try to span the gap between what they know and whats necessary, however it seems we are still at a stage where no one is willing to work as a team or build something for others to examine the core concepts of a client, this is where I hope to fill the bill with something that's not going to be a work of art but rather a teaching tool for those who just need to get to grips with the "WinMX style" of doing things, sure we could rip off a few whole clients from another network but to convert that whole would be about the same time as carefully crafting what we need out of individual parts, much of WinMX's operation is shrouded in secrecy with a few folks having all the pieces of what does what and this hasn't helped get more folks to offer help either.

I know folks want to have the most important bits of information but when asking why they need it its often a case that they are trying to walk before they can run thus they are told not a chance as its always been my contention that if someone cant show they can create a working secondary client then why should anyone trust them to work on a primary client where any mistakes could impact on the whole network.

All this aside its often the case that small things are forgotten when working alone, this has been driven home to me a few times and the project is started again from scratch, to avoid silly mistakes its best if the work is done in a controlled way with effort focused on where its needed and the build done in the most efficient order. I can say from experience this is a job for a team not a single person I think that's all there is to say and will be here if anyone would like to PM their info to chat about what they can do to help as its not just coding that can help move a project along.
Title: Re: 3rd party winmx replacement?
Post by: Pri on July 22, 2009, 02:26:14 am
We definitely need a new client.

Limited colours in Chat
2GB File Limit on Transfers
5000 File limit on Shares
Ghost Shares when on Secondary sometimes
Various strange unrepeatable bugs
Not compatible with Vista/Windows 7 Thumbnail generation
No UPnP Port auto negotiation
Only Blank/+/@ user symbols accepted in Chat view

Some of these issues are big, some of these issues are small. But when you add them all up together it creates an unattractive and limited client. Something with no real future. If we can't get a decent client out that fixes all these problems then WinMX will never recover.

What we need to do is get someone to reverse engineer all the WPN stuff. How files transfers are started, how you connect to Secondary/Primary users, how you download a Room List, how you Browse users, how the PM system works, how Queues are maintained. Everything and then we need that someone (Could be an individual or a group) to comment it and open source it so Interfaces can be made for it. It is a big thing to open source something like that but it would enable a lot of Clients to be made.

I am also suggesting that the Core itself be written with a clear extensible protocol so at the basic level it is a WinMX 3.53-4 compatible client then on top of that base it is able to send and receive keys to whichever client it is talking, to identify itself and the other client so extra features written in this specific client can assert themselves such as beyond 2GB file transfers, Random-Access downloading and so forth.

We needed this to be honest 2 years ago we are running out of time in my opinion we all know the network is not gaining users the amount of chat rooms is in decline and their is an epidemic of 'Parkers' plaguing the network. You know who I mean people who park in 20 rooms with WPCC buffing the numbers of the room. Practically every room I go in now has this problem and the only way to solve it is to get a better client out there that gets the network some publicity and gets people interested in WinMX again.

I think the Managed approach that GhostShip suggested could work great especially if it was used to create the open source core I am suggesting if all the current Chat client creators work on a central extensible core we can be assured of compatibility between all the various clients as-well as a fast development time as it is clear getting the complete WPN built and working is the most difficult part.

Ghost what is it do you think we need to get a project of this magnitude off the ground, and I am referring specifically to getting all the current standalone developers working together on a single goal.
Title: Re: 3rd party winmx replacement?
Post by: Forested665 on July 22, 2009, 02:59:12 am
Limited colours in Chat   - colors are due to a bug winmx originally didnt have them.
2GB File Limit on Transfers
5000 File limit on Shares - you can share more then 5k they just dont show up in browse just search.
Ghost Shares when on Secondary sometimes - this can happen on primary if the files are moved without the shares being updated
Various strange unrepeatable bugs
Not compatible with Vista/Windows 7 Thumbnail generation - explain please?
No UPnP Port auto negotiation - no UPnP at all. thats all done via the patch
Only Blank/+/@ user symbols accepted in Chat view - more then most chat systems have and what would you propose?

Quote
Ghost what is it do you think we need to get a project of this magnitude off the ground, and I am referring specifically to getting all the current standalone developers working together on a single goal.

good luck teaching them the same speaking language and the same programming language.
Title: Re: 3rd party winmx replacement?
Post by: Pri on July 22, 2009, 03:48:46 am
Limited colours in Chat   - colors are due to a bug winmx originally didnt have them.
2GB File Limit on Transfers
5000 File limit on Shares - you can share more then 5k they just dont show up in browse just search.
Ghost Shares when on Secondary sometimes - this can happen on primary if the files are moved without the shares being updated
Various strange unrepeatable bugs
Not compatible with Vista/Windows 7 Thumbnail generation - explain please?
No UPnP Port auto negotiation - no UPnP at all. thats all done via the patch
Only Blank/+/@ user symbols accepted in Chat view - more then most chat systems have and what would you propose?

Quote
Ghost what is it do you think we need to get a project of this magnitude off the ground, and I am referring specifically to getting all the current standalone developers working together on a single goal.

good luck teaching them the same speaking language and the same programming language.

I think you misunderstand my post. I wasn't looking for a dumbed-down explanation of the issues, I already know the issues and pointed them all out. What we need is a Client that solves these issues.

And about the Thumbnail thing: (http://img190.imageshack.us/img190/9639/alttab.jpg)
The Thumbnail issue is not a big issue but again when you point all the issues out together it shows a woefully outdated client that is stuck in a 9x era we need a modern client.

I get what you mean when you refer to getting everyone speaking the same language and the same programming language that is a pitfall but if we get some translators in to the mix for the discussion and comment translation and we get everyone to explain the parts of the protocols they have reverse engineered we can get multiple code bases on that code. We should not just give up at the first hurdle.
Title: Re: 3rd party winmx replacement?
Post by: birdman on July 22, 2009, 06:14:25 am
Emulator has a very popular client w.p.c.c  which as pri has mentioned is used my many people to boost their room number, sadly the client is nothing more than a chat client it cannot share etc but could it not be improved to use primary etc ?
Title: Re: 3rd party winmx replacement?
Post by: Lagerlout666 on July 22, 2009, 08:44:31 am
W.P.C.C is a nice client, but as far as im aware its closed source? You would be better trying to use KM's source albeit only as reference for doing your own.
Title: Re: 3rd party winmx replacement?
Post by: GhostShip on July 22, 2009, 09:09:21 am
The WinMX protocols have been known for a long time and information on how to use them is available to coders as well as some helpful guides I have written, most of this information is available in the "Core" section of the forum that is made up of members who can show they understand the need to be responsible with sharing it and to date with about 30 members of that group all have been, this is purely to prevent a repeat of the idiocy seen in former years with exploits being all most folks where interested in learning about.

I dont know how many more times I have to say this I have the transfers/protocol info if you can code folks.
Can I warn anyone against reverse engineering the original client, one reason is that its illegal and two it may taint the work folks like myself do that is done by spending months watching network traffic and analysing it, I ask you not to do something thats wrong and unecessary if you need info contact me and if I dont have the particular info you need  I will obtain it via legal means.
Title: Re: 3rd party winmx replacement?
Post by: birdman on July 22, 2009, 09:21:51 am
Maybe Emulator could add the transfers etc to his wpcc and then maybe that could become a replacment for winmx it seems half way there already ?  please note i do not know about coding
Title: Re: 3rd party winmx replacement?
Post by: GhostShip on July 22, 2009, 09:30:10 am
I,m sure thats a possibility but as has already been mentioned WPCC is closed src and thus the community gains little if anything in terms of looking to the future and being able to work on improvements as a community.

Title: Re: 3rd party winmx replacement?
Post by: birdman on July 22, 2009, 10:15:57 am
Personaly open source does not bother me, ive used winmx for years with that not being open source and the patch and have not batted an eyelid as i would think most wouldnt. I think the need for a new client is greater that if if its open or closed source, just my opinion
Title: Re: 3rd party winmx replacement?
Post by: Pri on July 22, 2009, 11:17:18 am
Personaly open source does not bother me, ive used winmx for years with that not being open source and the patch and have not batted an eyelid as i would think most wouldnt. I think the need for a new client is greater that if if its open or closed source, just my opinion

I do agree with this. I would like portions of it to be Open Source so that if the original writer goes MIA (which is common) others can pick up the work from where they left off like KM has done with WCS and WCB. On the other hand I just want a new client out there as soon as possible that can do everything we want even if it is closed I think most of us would be happy enough if it supported plugins which WPCC already does.
Title: Re: 3rd party winmx replacement?
Post by: Forested665 on July 22, 2009, 03:01:34 pm
GhostShip you have always said that the primary portion of your client will remain closed source. So if you go away it doesnt really help us any more then wpcc would.
Title: Re: 3rd party winmx replacement?
Post by: whohas on July 22, 2009, 03:32:58 pm

My fear of having a program developed under closed source is not only the fact it could be abandoned and never seen again, but also that the community may have very little influence over the direction of its development.
On the other hand, I don't know much about programming, but I always assumed the reason some popular p2p clients are NOT open source is because of the potential security issues that could arise if this code falls into the wrong hands.

It seems many people are still keen to have a new client but there doesn't seem to be any organised keen driving force pushing the people behind such peoject.

Here are some things that I think might be required for a "team" to undertake such a project:
1.)  market research - regular interaction with the community, gathering data and organising it in a managable way that can be used by the dev team.  This could also possibly incorporate design elements, such as how the UI will be made and how it can be improved based on what the market wants, etc...
2.)  resource manager - providing tools for the job, such as tech stuff like setting up a website/forum/ftp, live chat for public (or developer meetings), etc...
3.)  programmers - people to write the code to do the job demanded by the community (info from market research)
4.)  testers - test the product, compile detailed bug reports for he programmer/s to work on.


Maybe I am talking crap or maybe theres some sense to this, who knows, these are just some random thoughts of mine.
Title: Re: 3rd party winmx replacement?
Post by: GhostShip on July 22, 2009, 05:43:52 pm
Hi Whohas  :)

Much of what needs to be done in terms of updating is kind of redundant in my mind if we are unable to replicate what we have already and the hold up with that is lack of experienced coders and some trepidation on behalf of the existing ones, it is not a small project by any means and I factored this in when asking folks to work on a secondary client first that offers little or no facility for network damaging exploits and thus can be open-sourced, a primary client that can deal with existing network clients may be another kettle of fish and a special group may need to be formed to keep things safe and secure until an enhanced network protocol is constructed and utilised that will have no impact on the network as a whole, as I wrote previously there is no point running before we can walk.

Quote
It seems many people are still keen to have a new client but there doesn't seem to be any organised keen driving force pushing the people behind such peoject.

I do try my best to get folks interested but time is always going to be short when your making your own efforts and heading into the uncharted territory of programming, also I have set up a section for developers and have a wide spread of the community programmers able to access it, it has folks from this site, mxpie, mxcontrol, and even the rebellion amongst many of the well known other community names so I have tried to be inclusive in selecting members who I believe will recieve benefit and in turn give benefit to the community effort as a whole, however it seems thats not enough at this time and we need more skilled coders to interact and help complete a part of something that all of us can own, the effort is based on delivering something for all not just users of this site and I hope those sitting on the fence take notice of this important aspect of the "core" section" structuring.

I truly have no idea where we can go in gathering new hands to help with the job who share our ideals of a community based codebase and wish to aid or lead future developement, and that rather than anything else is the roadblock we face.
Title: Re: 3rd party winmx replacement?
Post by: Pri on August 09, 2009, 07:14:21 am
Can I warn anyone against reverse engineering the original client, one reason is that its illegal and two it may taint the work folks like myself do that is done by spending months watching network traffic and analysing it, I ask you not to do something thats wrong and unecessary if you need info contact me and if I dont have the particular info you need  I will obtain it via legal means.

Sorry to revive this thread but I was just reading through it and spotted this nugget. Where on earth did you get the idea that it is illegal to reverse engineer anything?

It is perfectly legal in the United States and many other countries all over the world to reverse engineer anything including things that are patented and protected by trade secrets.

The Supreme Court of America has confronted the issue of reverse engineering several times, upholding it under the principle that it is an important method of the dissemination of ideas and that it encourages innovation in the marketplace.

So I just wanted to clear that up that reverse engineering is perfectly legal and a lawful activity. Companies will always try to make it difficult because they do not want their competitors to learn their secrets but that does not affect the legality which is and always has been that it is perfectly legal
Title: Re: 3rd party winmx replacement?
Post by: Bluehaze on August 09, 2009, 01:35:51 pm
Greetings Pri,

Please check the WinMX License Agreement under the Help tab. I am sure this is one of the things Ghostship is looking at. If you install and/or use WinMX, you are agreeing not to, among other things, reverse engineer the program. You might be thinking of instances like many years ago when Compaq reverse engineered IBM's pc standard and "cloned" the pc. It was a boon for consumers, bringing in competition and lowering prices.

Thanks for your interest in the possibility of a new application to access the WPN! :)
Title: Re: 3rd party winmx replacement?
Post by: Pri on August 09, 2009, 01:52:05 pm
Greetings Pri,

Please check the WinMX License Agreement under the Help tab. I am sure this is one of the things Ghostship is looking at. If you install and/or use WinMX, you are agreeing not to, among other things, reverse engineer the program. You might be thinking of instances like many years ago when Compaq reverse engineered IBM's pc standard and "cloned" the pc. It was a boon for consumers, bringing in competition and lowering prices.

Thanks for your interest in the possibility of a new application to access the WPN! :)

It doesn't mater what the WinMX Agreement says. The Law superseeds it.

And this doesn't only apply to Computers. It applies to everything.
Title: Re: 3rd party winmx replacement?
Post by: Pri on August 09, 2009, 02:04:54 pm
Also I just wanted to add that the reason the law is like this is for 2 main reasons.

1. By being able to reverse engineer something you can improve on it and it creates competition and rivalry which is important in a free market to spur innovation and curb anti-competitive behaviour.

2. So that Patent Holders and Copyright holders can examine rival products for infringement of their intellectual property.

The law has always been like this and it is a common misconception that reverse engineering == Illegal Practice. Some products and services come with things like an EULA (End User License Agreement) which stipulate the ways in which a user/operator of such Product or Service can interact with said Product/Service. These EULA's or License Agreements may stipulate no reverse engineering but these do not hold up in a court of law at all they are completely meaningless and are not legally binding.

To put it another way if an Agreement told you it was ok to go kill someone that doesn't magically change the law making it ok for you to go and kill someone. The same thing applies to the legality of Reverse Engineering. But even beyond that the EULA and License Agreements included with Software (And other goods/services) are completely meaningless and cannot be enforced by any measure beyond a civil case. (Basically one person suing another person just like I could sue you for anything I wanted).

Some people get confused about the DMCA which stipulates the reverse engineering of copyright protection is illegal. But that is a separate issue governing only the removal of copyright protection for unauthorised distribution. It does not cover removal of copyright protection for fair use (Like stripping the encryption from a DVD to play it under Linux) this is a legal grey area but one no one wants to enter due to the litigation costs involved.

Anyway I hope this clears it up?
Title: Re: 3rd party winmx replacement?
Post by: GhostShip on August 09, 2009, 07:56:47 pm
I havent seen you point to any statues that make the law clear Pri but regardless, the issue is simply one of decency for me, I dont think we should steal someones hard work for ourselves and then pat ourselves on the back saying how celver we are, we have all read the WinMX licence and have taken note it includes a few terms of usage regarding reverse engineering,  whilst you claim this does not tie your hands it sure does mine. Both legally and morally

What is funny about all this is that there is nothing secret to learn from chopping the app up anyway that is not already in our hands.
Title: Re: 3rd party winmx replacement?
Post by: Pri on August 10, 2009, 03:09:01 am
Well you have already done reverse engineering Ghostship so you can get off your high horse. Simply by reading the information going in and out of WinMX to figure out its network protocol is considered Clean Room Reverse Engineering.

Maybe you should dump all that work? No I didn't think so. And you can google the law anywhere.

Link 1: http://www.webmilhouse.com/files/reverse_eng_paper_final.pdf
Link 2: http://www.chillingeffects.org/question.cgi?QuestionID=195
Link 3: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reverse_engineering#Legality

Quote from 1st Link
Quote
In the United States, there has been much talk of the legality of reverse engineering
software since the passage of the Digital Millennium Copyright Act of 1998 (DMCA). However,
case precedence has ruled in favor of reverse engineering more often than not, for both hardware
and software. Even in such strange areas as boat-hull engineering (Samuelson & Scotchmer,
2001), courts have ruled in favor of reverse engineering for the purposes of interoperability and
improvement of a competitor’s products.   
In most reverse-engineering projects, copyright infringement becomes an issue when a
programmer decompiles software and makes a copy of the original in the process. However,
courts have ruled that in the process of reverse engineering, specifically for interoperability, the
copy of the software is ruled under the “fair use” doctrine (Samuelson & Scotchmer, 2001).

Just look at ReactOS it is a complete Windows NT Replacement that runs Windows Applications and even Drivers the entire OS is made by reverse engineering Windows. There is a difference between decompiliation and using source code straight from the program and reverse engineering by reading the data sent and received by code written in to the program to mimmic those procedures in a newly written piece of code.

MXM, Leech Hammer, the Community Patch were all done by Reverse Engineering parts of the WinMX Client. As were FXServ, WCS, RCMS, WebChat - Pretty much every single thing that interacts with WinMX either directly by injecting in to it whilst it's running in memory or transferring data with it via it's Chat and/or WPN protocol was made through some degree of reverse engineering. Simply by using the program.
Title: Re: 3rd party winmx replacement?
Post by: Pri on August 10, 2009, 03:14:53 am
Also I don't want to be a pain in the ass but I'm a big open source advocate and well versed in the law in these areas and I just want to make it clear that Reverse Engineering is perfectly legal and even welcomed by law makers as an intended part of everyday business.
Title: Re: 3rd party winmx replacement?
Post by: GhostShip on August 10, 2009, 09:18:16 pm
I think we are becoming confused here as to the term "reverse engineering" so I,ll state my interpretation of the definition and that may clear up where I,m drawing the line, by "reverse engineering" I mean actual binary decompilation or actual translation of parts of the binary file into other machine based languages based only on the contents of the application file.

Other activities that do not seek to pry open the file itself are not covered by the law where I am, and I,m relying on existing legal precedence for protection against any claims.

Btw I,m also a great supporter of open src and for this reason will be using open src and releasing open src when I have crafted something together for us to use, I urge other client creators to do the same if possible as by diversification we can I hope move forward with new ideas and concepts without stealing the users basic experience or detracting from their security.
Title: Re: 3rd party winmx replacement?
Post by: whohas on October 02, 2010, 03:46:54 pm
just checking in this request as I do once a year or so, is there still no other app which connects via the WPNP peer caches?  I have a friend who is a programmer who might help with this project if it has not already been done, but would need some more info before we do anything first.
So, any news on this? :)
Title: Re: 3rd party winmx replacement?
Post by: whohas on October 02, 2010, 03:48:15 pm
oh and PS, i spoke with them about this reverse engineering thing, they said that its not illegal (in EU where they live) to reverse engineer the code of an application as long as you dont publish this code to the public, but you can use this code to program a new app and make this app public.
Title: Re: 3rd party winmx replacement?
Post by: GhostShip on October 02, 2010, 07:35:10 pm
Programmers are always welcome Whohas, :)

In reference to your last post,  we have no need to reverse engineer anything as far as WinMx goes as its been possible to generate the whole protocol via alternative methods and that's basically all anyone needs to know to build a clone, to aid this we have a private development section of the site where all the community programmers can discuss and develop their talents.

We are currently working on such a scheme here ("we" being Willmav and myself) and good progress is taking place, obviously there's been a lot of planning and many months of coding going into this and still there is much more to be done ,however once a few of the key milestones are completed to our satisfaction we will release more details and some screenshots, obviously there's little point in showing where we are at the moment as that would simply mean unwanted pressure to complete and other distractions, rest assured a lot of effort is going into this project but there is always room for more help, this is after all a community project, Winmxworld may be the driving force behind it but like the community patch all will gain from the work.

I hope that addresses your key points and its always nice to see folks interested in the future, such folks are likely destined to help create it after all.
Title: Re: 3rd party winmx replacement?
Post by: bu44er on October 03, 2010, 12:04:38 am
Is it not possible to obtain the source code of Winmx. I know you cant obtain the source and copy everything, but at lesat you would have a working client to work from. I personally would like to help with developing the new client, i just don't think that i can grasp the coding.

I can understand users wanting to see screenshots and demo's, i can also understand that you do not like the idea of being put under pressure. Please undersatnd that users are excited and interested. I respect all of the work that everyone here as put into WinMx and i can't begin to imagine what it would be like if this work and effort had not been caried out.

Everything will come to light when the time is right people.

Title: Re: 3rd party winmx replacement?
Post by: GhostShip on October 03, 2010, 12:34:13 am
Quote
Everything will come to light when the time is right people.


Exactly, couldnt have said it better myself Watcher  :-D

Title: Re: 3rd party winmx replacement?
Post by: whohas on October 03, 2010, 02:03:27 pm
I am glad to hear the good news that people are still interested in developing on this dated protocol.  It's fine to say "oh winmx is old u should move on" but still has hundreds of thousands of ppl on it (mainly japan) but still this is popular so it makes sense to develop on it instaed of trying to convice these thousands of ppl to move onto other software hehe.

But ofc I am patient like most ppl, hell, did u see when I first started this post? lol

keep up the good work, and if you need any non programming support for this (such as setting up a website/forums/irc channel) please let us know, I am more than willing to help in any way I can within the scope of my abilities, I have a million ideas and plans since winmx stopped developing which would love to discuss with ppl making a new app to work into this.

Will check back in a few months or so, i just hope I can find the info if/when it is posted from this project u are working on, perhaps u can add a note to this thread? :)

(ps, I tried to edit my previous post but for some reason the edit button is not appearing, is this normal? I will try on this post see if it appears)
Title: Re: 3rd party winmx replacement?
Post by: GhostShip on October 04, 2010, 08:37:01 pm
I,m sure some tasks will make themselves known as the project progresses and more folks will be needed to create support material and publicity, however that's still a little way off yet but rest assured when the final hurdle has been crossed and there's simply cleaning up and minor bug fixing I,ll be hot heeled to here to pass on the good news and ask for volunteers for translations, new user help information and all the usual paraphernalia of a new release, till then its all hands to the pumps and silence is golden time, progress is good but we havent reached a critical stage yet that will signal the majority of the project is done, as usual I ask folks for patience and ideas good or bad for new features or concepts, I would like to make clear however that in this first build we are minimising anything new as the main aim is to build on an existing foundation and only offer features that increase security, privacy and we hope file transfer speed, anything else is a second level priority, so the order we hope to deliver in is basic client, updated client and improved client with as much backwards compatibility as we can build in without compromising any of the required attributes, it wont be easy and will take time to deliver on all of this but the main thing is we are making the right steps to reach that stage and all who can help to speed up the process are free to join the project, it is after all a community project and thus we will all gain by doing what we can to deliver it.
Title: Re: 3rd party winmx replacement?
Post by: Bluey_412 on October 04, 2010, 10:26:43 pm
Having read all the foregoing, and small things like the 2GB limit, I feel that one salient point has been missed by sooooooooo many...

The Original WinMX has proven so durable, safe and well designed that even WITH its little niggles, it still runs, even under Windows 7 64 bit, and various non-windows platforms, and still does exactly what it has always been intended too.

Remember that the various patches do not actually modify the working of WinMX, merely its connectivity.

All this should be borne in mind, i think, when asking for an update, which is really, in my mind at least, what the so-called 'new client' will be, even tho it is indeed coming from different authors
Title: Re: 3rd party winmx replacement?
Post by: GhostShip on October 04, 2010, 11:03:16 pm
It is indeed a fine peice of software Bluey and I,m sure that fact isnt lost on most folks, our long term project goals are aimed at trying to recover some of the ground we have lost with the introduction of things such as throttling, only by the introduction of transport stream security can we close that hole in our armour.

Anyway enough jabbering from me  :lol:
Title: Re: 3rd party winmx replacement?
Post by: whohas on March 09, 2012, 02:06:11 am
just checking in this request as I do once a year or so, is there still no other app which connects via the WPNP peer caches?..

hey guys, happy to hear you are all still alive and kicking :)

I know i check back every year or so to see if any progress on any new clients that have been developed on this protocol yet, I dont suppose there is any? I had a search around but found nothing.. if there is some news pls let me know,

thanks
Title: Re: 3rd party winmx replacement?
Post by: silicon_toad2000 on March 09, 2012, 02:17:33 am
check http://forum.winmxworld.com/index.php/topic,11644.0.html (http://forum.winmxworld.com/index.php/topic,11644.0.html)