Hard drive destruction 'crucial'

[DaBees-Knees]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/technology/7816446.stm

The only way to stop fraudsters stealing information from old computer hard drives is by destroying them completely, a study has found. Which? Computing magazine recovered 22,000 "deleted" files from eight computers purchased on eBay. Freely available software can be used to recover files that users think they have permanently deleted. While Which? recommends smashing hard drives with a hammer, experts say for most consumers that's a step too far. Criminals source old computers from internet auction sites or in rubbish tips, to find users' valuable details, and a number of recent cases have shown the dangers in disposing of second-hand equipment. A number of software solutions exist to more definitively erase files and information. The most straightforward solution, according to Which?, is complete destruction - and it recommends using a hammer. It must be done with caution because those smithereens contain environmentally harmful materials so they should be recycled - for instance at the vendor from whom a new hard drive is purchased.

Worth it?

However experts advise that even a treatment with a hammer may not be the end of your data. Expensive and sophisticated techniques could be used to recover deleted data, even from a hard drive platter that has been physically damaged. But for most people, the freely available deleting software or a simple hard drive formatting procedure should make the data sufficiently difficult to retrieve as to not be worth a criminal's time. "You can get a credit card number on the internet for about ten pounds from credit card thieves," says Rupert Goodwins, editor of technology news website ZDNet. "So nobody's going to spend more than ten pounds trying to nick your credit card number off your hard disk." Mr Goodwins argues that the free software is as effective as the hammer - indeed, he argues it is as effective as the software that can be quite costly. "Unless you're a spook or the kingpin of a criminal consortium, there's no need to go out and buy deleting software and no need to put a hammer through the damned thing," Mr Goodwins told the BBC. "If you're that worried, get rid of it properly: burn it or put it in acid."

I don't agree that all deleting software will do the job well. A normal format, for instance, will still leave the information on your hard drive available to be recovered. There are programs that reformat/delete and replace your data with rubbish. These are the ones to look out for when wiping a drive.   

[White Stripes]

heres a tip.... got a friend with a linux box? or have one yourself?

lets say the hdd in question is on /dev/hdb ('slave' on the first controller ... normally would show as 'd:' in windoze).... give this a try.....

dd if=/dev/urandom of=/dev/hdb (wait till it finishes... drive light will be on for a while)

then

dd if=/dev/zero of=/dev/hdb (wait till finish)

paranoid? 'wash and repeat'  (urandom then zero again)

i doubt any software out there could recover anything from that.... esp if you use about 3 passes...

[ñòóKýçrÕôK]

Why not just delete and create a new partition and then format? Let the person wanting the pc after you tire of it worry about installing an os on it. And if a criminal should happen to get ahold of it after that then likely he'll not find anything regardless of what he's willing to spend to find the old info.

[Jakey]

The problem with that nooky is even if you do delete a partion, then create a new one, the space that was used by the old partions still holds old data. The new partion just finds new space to place it stuff on until there is no other room left, and then it eventually fills the old partion.

[wonderer]

Deleting a partition and formatting the new partition does not remove any of the data on the old partition, recovering the old partition is an easy job with free available recovery programs and recovering data from a formatted partition is as easy as well. 

[White Stripes]

just please.... nobody smash a hdd that still works.... if you are worried then wipe it clean with the linux method or other hd wiper software (plenty of freeware out there that can do this).... we dont need more computer crap in landfills that could be donated to those whose pocketbooks are a bit thinner... (think: schools --- wipe the drive and install the 'edubuntu' linux distro on it and donate it to a school)

[MinersLantern]

boot and nuke is destructive enough, and dangerously simple to use. Pop in a cd, reboot, say bye bye to any magnetic fields on your hard drive(s).

[ñòóKýçrÕôK]

boot and nuke is destructive enough, and dangerously simple to use. Pop in a cd, reboot, say bye bye to any magnetic fields on your hard drive(s).

And the drive is still completely usable afterwards?? And thanks on the partition info. Wasn't sure if that was sufficient enough to remove data or not.

[White Stripes]

nooky.. you cant erase the servo feedback tracks from a drive with a program (unless the drive was made in 1980-something... and even then you could put them back).... so no... the 'magnetic feilds' needed to make the drive -function- are still there... and the drive can be used for any other purpose without worries of your data falling into the wrong hands.... as long as the bios of your machine "sees" a harddrive (and knows/supports its capacity... something given to the bios -by- the drive) then it will work... (as long as the drive itself works... gotta love those hitachi/ibm "deathstar" drives)

[app103]

One thing not mentioned is what to do when you buy a computer or individual hard drive and the hard drive dies while it is still under warranty. You have to return it to the company for replacement. They usually do not let you keep it or dispose of it yourself without charging you an above normal price for the replacement drive, when they don't get the original back. Some companies, such as HP, will even void the remaining term of your warranty if they don't get the dead hard drive back. And they don't let you return it to them smashed to bits.

So what are you supposed to do to make sure the data on that dead drive won't be retrieved by anyone? How do you make sure it won't end up in some dumpster in China for anyone to just grab & walk away with? Traditional means of wiping a drive and making sure the data can't be recovered won't work if the drive is dead.

When you put in your claim for the replacement hard drive and they tell you to send the dead one back, ask for a certificate of destruction. Some companies will charge for this cert, but if they are willing to supply it (and all do if requested) they have to securely destroy & dispose of the hard drive and not return it to the manufacturer. If at any point the data on that drive is recovered by anyone, that cert is your ticket to collect damages from that company in court. This secure destruction service is required by a lot of businesses that may have sensitive data on a dead drive. This is why the PC and drive companies offer secure destruction.

To get this service, when you communicate with the company to report the dead drive, ask for it or ask to speak to one of their hard drive security people and arrange the destruction through him. This has to be done when it is reported, before they give you the instructions to send it back to them. Be stubborn & persistent. Claim it has sensitive data on it. Tell them anything to get them to offer it. Tell them you are a doctor and have patient medical records on it that have to be kept confidential, if you have to. Just get them to agree to a secure destruction and to certify it was done in writing.

[Forested665]

theres a script for linux boxes to test fragmentation. it writes 3b mb deletes half of it copes a quarter and writes a quarter. it does this until it fills the disk and then starts deleting the old to make room to keep going again. let it fun about 60 or 70 passes (about 9 days on an EIDE) and NOTHING will be recoverable except maybe the MBR

[White Stripes]

dont read the entire thread there do ya bacon....


anyhoo to app103:

that is a good point you make but the original intent for hdd destruction was for individuals selling computers to other individuals... not sending a hdd back for warranty service....

those drives that get sent back are refurbished (if possible... recycled if not...) and stuck on a duplicator which wipes them then puts the OEM windows install + software packages back on it... then its sent back out with a 'new' computer.... its likely that the drive that died on you died on someone else and/or the 'new' drive you got back was one that died one someone else... (how do you think OEMs keep the prices so low?)

demanding the company destroy it is a good thing if you are paranoid... but... i wouldnt worry about hp stealing info off of completely dead hdds.... since they get recycled (basically destroyed) if they cant be refurbished anyway... (the parts that make up the hdd are worth something too...)

companies that have less of a worry about PR... now those are the ones to worry about... (then again... i doubt such companies have warranty service in the first place)

but in the end... if you are that worried... then by all means demand the hdds destruction...

[app103]

Actually, HP doesn't do any fixing to any hard drives returned to them. They ship them back to the manufacturer in China and get credit for it off their next shipment of hard drives.

Then the manufacturer (usually Seagate) repairs them and ships them to someone else. If you have ever seen refurbished seagate/maxtor drives being sold on sites like Newegg or TigerDirect, now you know where they come from. It's not just refurbs of individually sold drives.

With the issues in China with hard drives being shipped out with malware on them (guess you can't trust the guys that work in the factories), who knows if your dead data filled drive is safe if not destroyed by HP?

Maybe I am one of the paranoid ones you spoke of, but I just don't trust my data being shipped to China and would rather the drive be destroyed by HP, and hang the legal responsibility on their heads if anything goes wrong.

[White Stripes]

Maybe I am one of the paranoid ones you spoke of, but I just don't trust my data being shipped to China and would rather the drive be destroyed by HP, and hang the legal responsibility on their heads if anything goes wrong.

well.. i worded it wrong to sound like HP was doing the refubing but i didnt think seagate (and the others) was doing that bad of a job of keeping an eye on things

what happened to seagate being king? (what happened to quantum?? those drives lasted forever.... hmm... that may be what happened to quantum....)

anyway.. thats why i said if you want it destroyed than do so... i wasnt being sarcastic...

for the longest time i had a maggotbox... er.. macintosh powerbook duo 280c that was in good condition and i could sell it for a sweet price... problem is... i couldnt find a way to connect its 2.5inch scsi hdd to a linux box to wipe it.... so i was planning on selling it sans the HDD...
(the planned sell fell through when the serial port popped loose, shorted out and screwed the mobo over)

so you arent the only paranoid one out there...

[app103]

Quantum was bought by Maxtor, who ended up being bought by Seagate.

I still have 2 working Quantum Fireball drives. 11 years old and still going strong.

[White Stripes]

i know how the 'bought by' chain went but the quantum brand just seemed to outdo everything but their success may have been their failure and why they sold to maxtor... (hdds lasted so long they werent selling enough?)

i have 3 computers 1 of them has 2 quantums the other has a quantum and a segate and the last (the one that runs windows) has a quantum and a hitachi/ibm deskstar aka 'deathstar' drive (the deathstar was resurrected from the dead.... and oddly works quite well..... cue the cheezy monster movie music? it makes an odd tweet-click noise every now and again but after paying attention to when it does it for a while it happenes every time the temp changes by about 5F in my comp room.... thermal recalibration?)

ok ok ... getting off topic i think

edit: fixed 'spacebar' oops...

[Forested665]

i had a 3.7 gig quantum fireball. overheated and died last year (13 years old)

and i have a 13 gig drive that i pulled from a factory production stamp is IBM malaysia 1988 so im guessing at the time that was equivalent to a 2TB drive today. its only got 3 bad sectors (totalling a 20mb loss) i put it in an external and use it as a loaner for freinds

and to reply to your other post stripes

those drives that get sent back are refurbished (if possible... recycled if not...) and stuck on a duplicator which wipes them then puts the OEM windows install + software packages back on it...

a duplicater is not the same as a fragmentation script.

they go something like this
12340000
12000000
12121234
12121200
12121212
12341212

a duplicater usually doesnt affect the structure of the tree just the blocks within it