Belated Merry Xmas To All & Happy New Years Wishes

[White Stripes]

wow.. you read in to that one way too much....

you constantly make comparisons to how winmx is better than other p2p...

you say let the torrent sites (who merely link to content... not provide it) fall then make an excuse that the browse list is from a primary... should that primary get a cease and desist due to assisting infringement?

my point is not that one is 'better' than the other (whichever 'other' you choose to compare)... the methods and protocols are different, but the concepts are the same... ...im just trying to get you to see from a different angle...

as for ppl getting sued on winmx... it only took one C&D letter to make the latest stable version 6yrs old now... pretty effective...


...all this bickering and infighting isnt going to go anywhere tho...

[GhostShip]

A false claim for secondary infringement (something not many countries recognise btw) was made for sure Stripes and unfortunately such claims have to be defended vigorously and that costs revenue, thus its legal merits or otherwise where not tested and the developer decided that for something they give away for free its just not worth throwing money into a revenue pit and this is the terror style bullying big media relies on to achieve its march towards a cartel of monopoly on the internet as they have achieved in the offline sphere.

If I,m reading too much into this it seems your also guilty of the same as you created the scenario and I am simply responding to it, as you are fully aware a primary user is likely on a dynamic IP that's flipped over pretty regularly by their ISP and is not a web server at a fixed URL or IP ,surely you can see there are major differences in the amount of effort one requires over the other to enter into dialogue with the alleged facilitator and we are not even looking into the more important aspect of this in that as you don't know what the secondaries are doing at any time you can claim simple ignorance, a time worn and valid legal defence as there is no intention to aid infringement implicit in running a primary, this cant be said of a web server hosting torrent links with descriptions and images of copyrighted content, sure there's legal aspects that need to be satisfied in either case but once again your not comparing like with like and its weakening your claims severely.

On the bickering front .. I asked folks for positive ideas for creating a wider and more expansive community for the future and how best to achieve that comments regarding other networks are not really of help as they bring nothing to the table that we are currently individually unaware of, I do like to hear of the background frame of reference behind  the ideas but when its getting simply off topic and does not deliver either ideas or a strategy for something positive I feel its only right to say so, we have had many good conversations and I enjoy your well researched opinions however you must appreciate my view is based on the premise that we need to do more as a community and sitting idle when help or support is needed is not really being part of the community, you of all ppl would agree with that I,m sure and its not really you or Pri I'm trying to reach out to here its the lay users, they need to hear the truth and that truth is we need to look forward and act as a community to make important and strategic changes in the direction we are going, you all know this and thus you all know where I,m coming from I haven't got any secret agenda and I don't presume to deliver orders to anyone but as a long time and educated winmx user you all know, I once again ask you all to see what you can bring to the table in the way of ideas and strategies for improving our lot, both Stripes and Pri are gracious enough to take the time to post their ideas as they regularly do both here and in private conversation and I may take umbrage with how those comments are delivered but they take part and they have my respect for that, now fellow users what can you offer as a vision for the future, we are all our ships captain so now's the time to lay out a course.

[Pri]

@Stripes: Browsing is not infringing activity, its simply a list delivered from a winmx primary and a list is not the same as actual file data that is necessary to bring a claim for infringement.

Pri you may have noticed this is a WinMX support forum, do you really expect me of all people to pretend bit torrent is faster in all cases when I know in many cases that's just not the case?
Why you continue to make the claim that bit torrent is faster because its bit torrent is beyond me but perhaps you have some reference data to show why this could be so ?
Data is transferred in blocks and sequential or not the data arrives at the downloader just as fast as it would if they where using a torrent client, if your claiming this is not the case I hope you have some data to back up your claim, winmx is also able to transfer multiple files at once btw

What we agree on thankfully is the need to get ourselves into a more positive position and most of your suggestions have already been mulled over having cropped up in many previous discussions held here and when possible many will come to fruit, my issue for the current time is that the fruit crop is delayed and we need to ensure other aspects of the community are taken care of and improved upon in the meanwhile thus my call for activity and action, doing nothing is not the way ahead I,m sure we all agree.

I already told you previously how Bittorrent is faster. When there is only 1 downloader of a file WinMX and Bittorrent are the same. But when there are 2 downloaders or more Bittorrent is faster as each downloader on Bittorrent can share the bits they already have of the file between eachother (as they download different parts) where as on WinMX the files are always shared start to finish so downloaders always have the same parts of the file and are unable to trade the parts they already have with other users. This is under the condition that multiple downloaders started the file at the same time, an 'apples to apples' comparison where both Bittorrent and WinMX were in a race with 10 file sharers and 5 Downloaders with all other variables the same (Speed, Latency etc) Bittorrent will always win.

You don't need to believe it, it's a fact. It's the reason many companies now use Bittorrent. For example Twitter they have thousands of servers and they now use Bittorrent inside their own buisness to keep their servers in sync. Previously 1 server would send a file to another server and then both of those servers would send that file to another server then those 3 servers would send it to another server. This was inefficient. Now each server as soon as it begins to get any part of the file instantly starts sharing that out to other servers. It took their server file transfer time down from 40 minutes to 11 seconds. Blizzard entertainment also deliver game patches through Bittorrent, as each downloader of the patch is at the same time seeding the parts of the file they have to other users.

And here is something else BT has that WinMX lacks. Lets say you have 50 users on WinMX each with 20% of a file. There is no way at all any of them users will complete that file at all. As they will all have the same 20% (the start of the file) while on Bittorrent 50 Users could still complete that file as they would all have different parts of the file and able to trade those different parts to eachother without a user that has 100% of the file. This is another strength of the protocol due to its bit sharing based on availability (least shared bits are the ones that get requested most of all to keep a file alive as long as possible).

You are seriously Anti-BT and it's getting stupid the way you are claiming WinMX a program that hasn't been updated in several years is somehow superior to Bittorrent which everyone with any measure of intelligence knows is the highest performance and most efficient data delivery system in existence. I don't want to beat a dead horse but even the guy behind WinMX is making a Bittorrent client (Tixati) he claims it isn't him but _come on_ the WinMX menubar redirects to the program, the site looks almost identical, the user interface of the program matches WinMX. What more evidence do we need.

On the bickering front .. I asked folks for positive ideas for creating a wider and more expansive community for the future and how best to achieve that comments regarding other networks are not really of help as they bring nothing to the table that we are currently individually unaware of, I do like to hear of the background frame of reference behind  the ideas but when its getting simply off topic and does not deliver either ideas or a strategy for something positive I feel its only right to say so, we have had many good conversations and I enjoy your well researched opinions however you must appreciate my view is based on the premise that we need to do more as a community and sitting idle when help or support is needed is not really being part of the community, you of all ppl would agree with that I,m sure and its not really you or Pri I'm trying to reach out to here its the lay users, they need to hear the truth and that truth is we need to look forward and act as a community to make important and strategic changes in the direction we are going, you all know this and thus you all know where I,m coming from I haven't got any secret agenda and I don't presume to deliver orders to anyone but as a long time and educated winmx user you all know, I once again ask you all to see what you can bring to the table in the way of ideas and strategies for improving our lot, both Stripes and Pri are gracious enough to take the time to post their ideas as they regularly do both here and in private conversation and I may take umbrage with how those comments are delivered but they take part and they have my respect for that, now fellow users what can you offer as a vision for the future, we are all our ships captain so now's the time to lay out a course.

Well it's pretty simple, we need a new client with new features. The new users I get involved with WinMX always make comparisons to other more capable P2P services and as the saying goes 'If you build it they will come' If we need programmers it's time we hired one. I'm willing to put my money where my mouth is and put it in to a 'community pot' to hire freelance programmer to take up our cause (there are many sites offering such pay by hour services).

[RebelMX]

my issue for the current time is that the fruit crop is delayed and we need to ensure other aspects of the community are taken care of and improved upon in the meanwhile

Does this mean that the new chat client we have all been basing our hopes on is now set back some, and therefore not going to be making even a beta release in the near future?  We don't need people/programmers creating 15 different clients that all don't quite cut the grade (as we have had in the past) to replace WinMX if the "main" development thread is well on the way to completion.  Some feedback for those willing, able and capable in assisting/creating, whether they are liked or disliked by WMW, or Quicks himself, might be useful in enabling the community to stand up and be counted?

My personal view is WinMX is not dead and never will be.  Yes the sharing is diminishing but it ceased once upon a time when the caches (run by FrontCode) closed.  Therefore the fact there is still some sharing and a vast amount of a community left shows it will not simply vanish.  The capitalist ways have said so.  However a new client is in desperate need, but a simple clone is the first step in doing this.  Forcing users across onto a new protocol/network won't ever happen (as proven by Windows XP in light of Vista and 7) so that leaves just a bridging client.  There are many old school programmers from the pre-crash WinMX days who are returning to see what is going on.  Quicks may not love these guys but in the current situation and predicament we are in, do you have the choice in whether they or anyone else has the RIGHT to help push the community in the right direction?  You can't speak for the entire community, knowing your feelings for me I would long ago have been banished from WinMX, and yet many in the community trust and rely on me.  That shows the community is bigger than this one site and therefore bigger than 1 site admin...

Do whats best for the protocol and network, not whats best for your own peace of mind.
[*rant over*]

[Bluey_412]

all good thoughts, from everyone, BUT...

Education on sharing and how the network works would also eliminate 90% of the reasons people look elsewhere

I see users all the time going take, take, take, without allowing any return traffic. We need to actually get people back to the concept of sharing being give and take, not just take...

I dont advocate a bit-torrent type protocol, but i sure as hell do advocate 2-way Sharing

What have ANY of you done to try to promote THAT concept?

[Pri]

What have ANY of you done to try to promote THAT concept?

Lots of things. In my room based on what users share they get points, achievements. Just by sharing TV Shows the room will build an index of their TV in to a TV Guide which notifies them (and other users) of new show releases and who is sharing them. We even have a web-based interface for that watchlist to make it even easier.

I mean seriously I'm bending over backwards to promote file sharing on WinMX. I've made it rediculously easy, I give perks to users who do it. I'm proud to say that when my room has 60 users inside all but 1 user is using WinMX the official client and sharing files. Usually only one user using WPCC and no other non-WinMX clients are there.

[White Stripes]

but once again your not comparing like with like and its weakening your claims severely

i was trying to keep this from turning into a flamewar as thats the last thing this thread needs...


but you want some serious suggestions for the future? i have but 2....

1. clone client... exact functional duplicate with all the same artificial limitations in place...

2. advertise the hell out of this clone client saying that new features can now be added while monitoring client uptake... if the uptake is bad then lets just let winmx fade to obscurity... if uptake is good... add features and hope for the best....


cos with what we have now theres not much that can be done except social networks' word of mouth....


heh... and i can vouch for the functions of pris room... i had to literally print the listing the bot gives when asked for the commands cos there are so damn many bells and whistles the room needs a manual.... lmao....


oh... and please let us not forget our friends in the land of anime...

[Pri]

but you want some serious suggestions for the future? i have but 2....

1. clone client... exact functional duplicate with all the same artificial limitations in place...

2. advertise the hell out of this clone client saying that new features can now be added while monitoring client uptake... if the uptake is bad then lets just let winmx fade to obscurity... if uptake is good... add features and hope for the best....


cos with what we have now theres not much that can be done except social networks' word of mouth....

Sounds good to me. I think like Silver says there isn't much we can do without a new client at this point. Users don't want what we are peddling currently that's why they are leaving we need a new client to start bringing them back.

[GhostShip]

Ritchy I would prefer you didn't pretend to speak for anyone else except yourself, I don't know anyone besides you and a few well known trouble makers who are upset with me in any way, if you know any different then name some names and I can then resolve any outstanding issues if there are any with anyone I may have accidentally aggrieved.

Your main gripe at this time is that I don't trust you with the client projects src code from all I can see and that's basically the truth of the matter, the client project will be open src so all can benefit from it and that's not something you have stated you will adhere to in any way shape or form, imagine if you will a scenario where code is shown to you before its published at src forge and you decide you want to take a key chunk without also open sourcing it for your closed src projects, where does that leave the community project ?

I know you can do this after the code is published but it can be detected and actioned by the FSF on our behalf and thus some measure of legal protection can be given to the open src as is the want of all the programmers, I would like to hear from any programmer who wants to help the community but I really don't want to make time to help those who want to take but offer nothing in return.

I don't trust you because you wont say sorry for adding a back door to your modified WCS client that's closed src and thus could contain anyone's code but I digress, unless your attacking the network your left to do what you choose as is every other user out there, you also have no concept of the ramifications of some of your plans and this is always a concern of mine, it may feel great to work only on your own projects for your own credit but some of us have to look for the good of the whole network and its userbase and how small tweaks here and there may affect it,for instance recently I saw you state that you where going to publicise the primary protocol, be told now once and for all if you publicise the TCP primary stuff we risk losing the whole network just for you to make a name for yourself, its not like all those who need it don't already have it and so you wont be doing anything new just reinventing the wheel and upsetting the delicate balance of things.

Let me  move on to your other insinuation, I hope I have the respect of the majority of the networks users and I like to think I have earned that the hard way by working hard on the site here and previously at cricketmx and also privately behind the scenes to make things happen and connect ppl together, I don't demand anyone jump when I say but I do however like to throw a few topics up for open discussion because your absolutely right when you say I don't have any rights to force folks to do anything, that's one of the golden rules I never forget, thankfully however I don't have to force the vast majority of folks to do the right thing as they already know what that is, now to round off my own monologue here I would like to thank you for posting and also ask you not to ply the vendetta claim and reference it to myself as its pretty insulting for me to know I share everything I do and you are simply upset because I wont share community materials with you, I told you long ago if you wont apologise here to folks regarding the backdoor issue how can we move on with any trust, you may not like what I,m saying but please respect the honesty of it.

If anyone seriously believes that I,m way out of line with the userbase then please feel free to have a vote to select someone who you think is better suited to working towards your interests, tbh I,m more than happy to do some sitting around myself watching others work.

[RebelMX]

Sorry Quicks I think you misunderstood the entirety of my last post.  I am not angry, bitter or disappointed with not being "allowed" to assist YOUR community project.  I was asking for a community update since the project is for the community.  Your statement made it sound like there were set backs in the project and therefore I was requesting more information on that, not on specific code pieces nor detailed info on your project.  I have unfortunately never stated I would publish the primary protocol, but in previous posts I have questioned your ability to open source a project if primary IS included, thus publishing the protocol.  Please don't attempt to put those words in my mouth.

I, as is the same for you, cannot speak for anyone but myself, however sometimes my views, again as with yours, do coincide with the vast majority of the community, and therefore you asked for viewpoints and suggestions and I gave mine.  I have no need to "steal" anyone's code, least of all yours.  Open source is great, I mean look at WinPy and WinZO they are doing great open sourced.  Aside from that, all I was requesting is how far off a full operational WinMX replacement full public version is, as should any other developers such as Pri, Stripes or even myself want to produce one it would be pointless to begin should you be say, 2 months away?  However if you are still several months/years away from having a completed program then it may be worth someone else pursuing the idea.

[GhostShip]

I got the impression from your post here

http://winmxphoenix.webs.com/apps/forums/topics/show/2890786-new-version-of-rswcs-soon-

"fully document the winmx protocol, chat, secondary and primary"

I,m very pleased this is not a public release of such information, it did seem to be the case when I read this.

I did make a post regarding the delays some weeks ago on Slycks and I know thats not the same as posting it here but many of those in the wider p2p network are watching with interest in the clients progress, currently we are fighting on two fronts to finish an alpha with all parts in in and then it will be tested by the locals here until its safe enought to become a beta we did try to reach this stage by xmas but disappointedly we couldnt make the time frame 

The work will continue and of course we can only gain when others get involved in improving or adding to it when its ready , as for the primary side of things its clear to me at least that the secondary client is the way to go in the begining as if the primary network needs reworking we can simply make changes to what we already have whereas if you try that the other way around it wont be possible to do, all logical really , I,m sure you agree and thus I look forward to hearing you getting involved when the src is released after all I,m not disputing you have a talent to offer but I would prefer it was within a framework folks could have some control over themselves and open src fits that bill.

[Pri]

Ghost if you ever doubt that we support what you are doing with this client. Think otherwise. I am extremely grateful that you have taken the time to make a new client. And there is no 'but' here. I am just thankful and appreciative.

[wonderer]

There are a few things reading above that made me respond again.
First is dowloadspeed and I mentioned it before is depending on sources and bandwidth and tcp/ip being an over 50 year old protocol, it is still the best there is. This cannot be changed by different clients.
Quality of files, If you take newsgroups, or any p2p, there are great differences in quality of content and as I don't think WinMx is meant to get CD quality music or HD-TV movies but for sharing and discussing samples there is no need to share 80Gb files.
You will have to find resources giving good quality and will learn to shift the crap.
I never have been virus infected by files I downloaded from WinMx which I cannot say from many other filesharing groups I tried. This might be just because WinMx users are of a different specimen than lets say kaaza.
Sharing albums or series is provided in WinMx if you share lists of filehashes.
What we maybe can look into in future is a bonus system like other p2p clients have. the more you upload the higher your rank in a download que, but as far as I have seen the working of those systems, they are not good as the bonus records are stored on one side of the p2p and only at one client. This means if you are a good uploader for one client that has nothing to download for you, you get a high rank in que, but that helps little if you will never end up in that que.

A very big minus I found in bit torrent is the fact if you jump in a pool that is one week old, you most likely never finish the file as most sources stop seeding when the file is completely downloaded. I know this happens on WinMx too, but our community has many sharers that realy want to share and only take a file from share when it is no longer asked for.

To use WinMx you must be a bit inventive sometimes, but it can do everything if not more than any other p2p.

[Bluey_412]

Hear - hear....

[sharing sarah]

I personally would like the code made so that those running the 0-0 hack or 1-1 hack blocked from the network even if the code is closed. WinMx is a file sharing network and these people are cheating other users.
 
I ignore users that use it and think all should do the same.
As for wpcc I block all none chat clients from the room, there are many hosts that use them just to make they're rooms look bigger to draw in users that have real files. I can see using them in a help room for giving instruction but that's it.

Then there are those that use the hack to limit who they share with, as in come to my room for a start. This seems rather needy to me as many on Mx don't chat, yet you can find these same users with the hacks in your own Que at times. I use a simple invite to the room in my auto responder but everyone in Que will start as they're turn comes up, and then monitor will auto start my friends in another slot.

WinMx is made to share files so make it where ALL users have to share.

Just my 2 cents

Rant over.

[Pri]

There are a few things reading above that made me respond again.
First is dowloadspeed and I mentioned it before is depending on sources and bandwidth and tcp/ip being an over 50 year old protocol, it is still the best there is. This cannot be changed by different clients.
Quality of files, If you take newsgroups, or any p2p, there are great differences in quality of content and as I don't think WinMx is meant to get CD quality music or HD-TV movies but for sharing and discussing samples there is no need to share 80Gb files.
You will have to find resources giving good quality and will learn to shift the crap.
I never have been virus infected by files I downloaded from WinMx which I cannot say from many other filesharing groups I tried. This might be just because WinMx users are of a different specimen than lets say kaaza.
Sharing albums or series is provided in WinMx if you share lists of filehashes.
What we maybe can look into in future is a bonus system like other p2p clients have. the more you upload the higher your rank in a download que, but as far as I have seen the working of those systems, they are not good as the bonus records are stored on one side of the p2p and only at one client. This means if you are a good uploader for one client that has nothing to download for you, you get a high rank in que, but that helps little if you will never end up in that que.

A very big minus I found in bit torrent is the fact if you jump in a pool that is one week old, you most likely never finish the file as most sources stop seeding when the file is completely downloaded. I know this happens on WinMx too, but our community has many sharers that realy want to share and only take a file from share when it is no longer asked for.

To use WinMx you must be a bit inventive sometimes, but it can do everything if not more than any other p2p.

You mention a lot of stuff here so I just want to cover some of it that I feel is incorrect.

At the start you mention how the TCP/IP system can't be improved upon. But that is false as the uTP procotol (which is UDP not TCP based) is more efficient than TCP alone and uses less overhead for packet exchanges. This allows more data to be sent between clients using the same allotment of bandwidth.

Also you say at the end that WinMX can do everything if not more than other P2P. Well this is also false as I've said several times already. It doesn't support files over 2GB in size, it doesn't support out-of-order Multi-Segment downloading, it doesn't support IPv6. I mean I could go on but you get the point.

I understand everyone has good intentions and everyone wants to push WinMX to others and make it sound really great but lets keep things factual and within reality. And guys don't forget that Kevin the head of Frontcode said in an interview with Slyck that version 4.00 of WinMX was going to be a complete redesign with a new protocol. So there is no need for us to beat a dead horse and act like the current WinMX is the be all and end all because even the programs creator was 3 steps away from starting over, if he could see it we should start seeing it and realizing the dream they planned in the first place.

[Will]

I personally would like the code made so that those running the 0-0 hack or 1-1 hack blocked from the network even if the code is closed. WinMx is a file sharing network and these people are cheating other users.

That's already something that's been looked into. We can add a setting within the new client to block people with 0 of 0 upload slots at the users request, but it's not a priority atm. Also some of the tools that people use with MX atm won't work with the new client and will need to be modified or added into the source.

[Stevi]

Talk about off topic... LOL

To get back on it, I hope everyone has a safe and happy New Years!! Remember not to drink and drive!

[Bluey_412]

hush you!

The debate's good, lol

[hussam]

i must agree with pri  winmx is lacking in capability's  as far as file sharing and cannot compare in download speeds as you get on torrent sites if there is  plenty of seeds, i collect  albums and you can get complete group catalogs on torrent sites and i have never gotten 1.2 mbs download speeds on winmx ever i mainly use winmx anymore for chatting  but i am still a loyal winmx user.