New Client

[GhostShip]

I'm not sure why you have skipped over the important point made but for the sake of clarity I will make it again, whilst there are potential exploits due to using the existing WPN protocol it would be foolhardy to release the OurMx src, you are aware what occurred last time src was released before it was sensible to do so and we are still paying for that now, 4 years of trouble and userbase loss because of shortsighted actions, forgive me for not wishing to see any such repeat.

To confirm : The name was chosen by forum members in the open here not by any committee so yes you did miss the vote but it was indeed open.

I agree collaboration is the way ahead that much we do agree on but I don't think its wise to put potential tools of mass destruction into the hands of fools, I have chosen those whom help on Ourmx and thus far we haven't had any unwanted src releases and no ones been impacted in any adverse way, you have been consistent in what you have said and so I need to follow suit, neither you nor anyone else (bar current OurMx developers) is giving any firm or binding undertaking to work on OurMx to fix up the known issues, these include the major protocol flaws I have been speaking of for many years.

I think we do need to take stock of where we are but more importantly this is not about github and open src at this stage its time we all made our way to a chat room and worked on what we need to do to remove the barriers to open src,  discuss protocol fixes and address such problems prior to throwing our "seed" to the wind, when we have done some planning we may well find we are in a good place and can move forward as one community, I too look ahead and believe the ethic of freedom for all , there should be no one person or group controlling anything and this has been followed in the cache system and other areas but allowing ourselves to become impatient instead of addressing a problem is not what I want to expect from anyone whom I believe is a code professional, "us" and "them" does not work , we haven't prefixed "winmxworld" onto all of our projects simply because we believe in the ideal of real community and ourselves being a part of that and not simply empire building for ourselves.

Forgive me for this but "feature parity" 

I affirm that for me the users are the most important aspect of this community, whilst I admit to sensing apathy amongst the userbase when it comes to ridding ourselves of the attacking plague we all know that deep down we have to put back in whatever we are able to when we see the opportunity and collectively we can all walk tall, to remains a community we do however have to cast aside our own limitations and enjoin with others to build the golden future we all want, discussion and cooperation is the key to that particular door.

[hollow87]

Since you have said in the past the exploits are really on the primary portion maybe make a the code able to have a conditional compile and make it so you can remove/add the primary portion with a simple #define statement, or put the primary code in a dynamically linked library that only gets linked at run time with the said define statement, then put the code on GitHub just as the secondary client only no primary code.

Can even put the full code base in a PRIVATE GitRepo either on GitHub or GitLab or BitBucket or somewhere else, that way you don't have to keep just zipping up the code and passing it around among who ever is currently developing it.

Another thing would be that if you have used any GPL code in your code (RoboMX is GPL) already you must follow the instructions of the GPL which includes licensing the deriviitve work under a license compatible with GPL and releasing the source.

That is the reason why Bender made his code GPL other people who used his work for future projects would have release their code as open source as well

Also the point of GitHub would be the code would be out there for people who are willing to commit not all their times but just small portions of if here and there to developing it.  You would even have a proper issue/bug tracker rather than using a SMF forum as a bug tracker.

At the moment I do not have a butt load of time to devote to this project however I would be willing to take a peek now and then at an issue tracker and the code to see if can't knock down 1 bug.  But the current way you guys share the code between one another does not work in a decentralized environment. 

Do the right thing release at least the secondary code on GitHub in a public repo if you need a private repo and don't want to pay the low fee GitHub charges for one I can offer a couple alternatives including BitBucket and GitLab (haven't tried GitLab yet but it looks very promising may start moving my private repo's there) then it can finally be called OurMX and actually mean it right now it's more like YourMX with how closed it is after promises of open source.

[GhostShip]

It stagger me how selfish folks have become, when you guys want something you fly out of the woodwork talking about how the OurMx developers have to "do the right thing" when its clear neither of those asking for the src release have taken that same ethic on board.

I don't remember either of you helping to create OurMx nor offer one single line of code to it,  unlike Pri Hollow was asked to join the effort back when OurMx was just getting started as MxShare, is it now our fault you have sat in the wings for the last 4 years Hollow ?

Re-read the post above your own and address the points made, perhaps then progress can be made, I have a lot of time for this community but in real life I am mega busy with new work commitments so I fully understand that for the community to move ahead and  reach the place we all want to be we have to work as a virtual team and act without placing our personal feelings into this matter, OurMx is worth the time and focus of the whole community but it seem many have no time for it but wish to work on projects that we already have by the bucket load such as chat servers and chat clients, that's great for them personally but in the big picture its time wasted and users lost, please address the real issue here of creating an environment that will deliver the way ahead and please don't spend your focus on whether OurMx will be put on github to be forked off under some other name as that to me is the height of despicable behaviour.

I am fully aware btw of the GPL requirements and have been very selective on what third party code is included in OurMx and where it comes from and what may require replacing at times, but be assured it would in my opinion be preferable to delete the entire OurMx project than to allow some two bit attackers access to the primary code as it sits at this time, that's my commitment and responsibility to carry, something I cant say I am seeing from those whom are impatient to rush into things without expanding their minds to the potential adverse consequences of such actions.

I spoke to Hollow back in February about creating a secondary only OurMx but with the loss of a developer at that time and with the start of a new job doing longer hours I personally didnt manage to remove the primary code successfully without causing the remaining client to crash, without further coder support such things are problems and the question has to be asked as to whether its best to go forward and get community agreement on proposals for change or just deliver a secondary client that brings us no further forward but would expand the quantity of coder access to our community, its not something thats easy to judge and at times both paths are being taken thus in fact impeding the very real battle to move ahead in either direction.

Now I apologise if this has become heated as thats not my core aim, I just feel at this stage that we need to set up a discussion location to work past these small hurdles and create a single cohesive plan to work forward as one and face the problems that prevent us going the open src route that we all want, I do ask for some serious thought from all who care about this network and further for some sensible minds to jump forward at this stage to help manage this for the good of the community, squabbles and annoyances are wasted time, something we don't have to spare.

 

 

[Pri]

I'm not sure why you have skipped over the important point made but for the sake of clarity I will make it again, whilst there are potential exploits due to using the existing WPN protocol it would be foolhardy to release the OurMx src

Okay first of all, the network is already under deliberating attacks. Chat rooms are being crashed, searches don't work, users are being PM bombed at this very moment and the channel list does not load.

But looking past the attacks that are going on right now, you don't have to open source the primary protocol. It can be included in the project at compile time as a closed sourced component downloaded by the compiler. Only the actual client itself needs to be open sourced. Danger averted.

Forgive me for this but "feature parity" 

You're forgiven, I forgot Mato already has file transfers working and is functional.

It stagger me how selfish folks have become, when you guys want something you fly out of the woodwork talking about how the OurMx developers have to "do the right thing" when its clear neither of those asking for the src release have taken that same ethic on board.

It staggers me how you can frame this situation like this. We essentially say, if you want the project to succeed you need to open it up so everyone can work on it and we're the selfish ones? - How about you're the selfish one demanding everyone jump through your hoops to get a look at the source and to help with it? - I don't want you as a gatekeeper, you're impossible to work with. I just want the source in a place I can contribute without having to deal with you.

Use a GPL license. No one will be able to distribute their changes without providing source. But at this point if you wait too long an open source client is going to happen and then all this current effort will be wasted.

I don't remember either of you helping to create OurMx nor offer one single line of code to it,  unlike Pri Hollow was asked to join the effort back when OurMx was just getting started as MxShare, is it now our fault you have sat in the wings for the last 4 years Hollow ?

When it was called MXShare it was just a modified RoboMX. And honestly I didn't see that the project was ever going to materialise.

Re-read the post above your own and address the points made, perhaps then progress can be made, I have a lot of time for this community but in real life I am mega busy with new work commitments so I fully understand that for the community to move ahead and  reach the place we all want to be we have to work as a virtual team and act without placing our personal feelings into this matter,

That's pretty much why I've said to use Github several times. People wouldn't need to talk we can just work on the client in our own time and you can view the code being submitted and either add it to the mainline or not. Full source change history, reversion etc

Lets be frank here, I have no interest in being a beta tester for the client when I cannot go in and fix things just like with a click of my fingers. If it was on github I would run the client 24.7 as my main WinMX and I would fix everything that annoys me by submitting the changes back to the project on github or bitbucket or wherever it was hosted that has proper source control.

OurMx is worth the time and focus of the whole community but it seem many have no time for it but wish to work on projects that we already have by the bucket load such as chat servers and chat clients, that's great for them personally but in the big picture its time wasted and users lost, please address the real issue here of creating an environment that will deliver the way ahead and please don't spend your focus on whether OurMx will be put on github to be forked off under some other name as that to me is the height of despicable behaviour.

First of all, maybe you don't use the chat that much to understand the problems there, but we have a spammer who goes in everyones rooms spamming messages and he also now spams PM inboxes. So users now have to turn off their "Receive PM's from Chat Room" setting just so they don't get letter bombed with 100's of PM's in a few minutes.

We also have the most popular chat server on the network (WCS) able to be crashed at any time an attacker feels like it without even being in the channel. We do not have the source code to the more recent versions of WCS because the programmers who made those forks don't want to share. So we are stuck with crude binary patching which will only work up to a point.

But that doesn't solve the spamming both in-room and in PM. For that we need a redesigned chat server. That's why RCS 2.0 is being made. It will have mechanisms to stop these spammers from getting in rooms so they cannot spam and it'll be fully open source from the first release so that people can fix issues, add features and best of all continue the project after we're gone.

Finally you talk about people starting chat clients all the time. Well maybe if we had the source code to WPCC, probably the best WinMX clone in appearance and functionality we wouldn't need to start from scratch? Adapting RoboMX is what most have chosen to do, including yourself before abandoning that and starting over with OurMX.

I can tell you this, it would have been a lot easier to add primary protocol and upload/download support to WPCC which had the exact look and feel of real WinMX than it would have been to start over from nothing which is what OurMX, Mato and other clients I'm aware of have had to do.

I spoke to Hollow back in February about creating a secondary only OurMx but with the loss of a developer at that time and with the start of a new job doing longer hours I personally didnt manage to remove the primary code successfully without causing the remaining client to crash, without further coder support such things are problems and the question has to be asked as to whether its best to go forward and get community agreement on proposals for change or just deliver a secondary client that brings us no further forward but would expand the quantity of coder access to our community, its not something thats easy to judge and at times both paths are being taken thus in fact impeding the very real battle to move ahead in either direction.

Now I apologise if this has become heated as thats not my core aim, I just feel at this stage that we need to set up a discussion location to work past these small hurdles and create a single cohesive plan to work forward as one and face the problems that prevent us going the open src route that we all want, I do ask for some serious thought from all who care about this network and further for some sensible minds to jump forward at this stage to help manage this for the good of the community, squabbles and annoyances are wasted time, something we don't have to spare.

I understand you're busy and you also don't want to put primary code out there. It's not easy to rip out a core component if you've intertwined it with the rest of the client code. I know you're not a professional coder as you've honestly and without pretension admitted that many times.

The last thing I want to say is, if you don't want to open source it, that's fine. If it was me I'd probably change the name to GhostsMX though so we can have an open source client called OurMX instead.

[GhostShip]

It seems once again that nothing thats being said is comprehended nor adressed fully, instead the questionable mantra of "release the OurMx src and we might fix something one day" is being spouted, sounds like a poor deal for the community to me and one I dont intend to bother with it if thats all your interested in.

I think I need to emulate others here and sit around castigating anyone who works on an MX related project for not handing it over to me so I can fork rebadge it.

Unless someone else step forward in the next week to work past anti-wmw entities I dont see any point in bothering to do anything, it seems the only ones interested in this community are the ones who want it called RENMX and thats not a network I wish to support nor will I.

My PM box is open to anyone who puts the whole community at the top of their list.

[Pri]

It seems once again that nothing thats being said is comprehended nor adressed fully, instead the questionable mantra of "release the OurMx src and we might fix something one day" is being spouted, sounds like a poor deal for the community to me and one I dont intend to bother with it if thats all your interested in.

Yes I agree there is a lack of comprehension, on your end. As I just said if it was on github I would run the client 24.7 and fix everything that annoy me about the client. That could be minor things like text encoding problems, window form placements. And that could be big things like file transfers failing more often than not.

I think I need to emulate others here and sit around castigating anyone who works on an MX related project for not handing it over to me so I can fork rebadge it.

Ah so the truth comes out, you're afraid that someone will simply come along, fork it and work on it without you. Pretty egocentric that isn't it? If your quality of work is high people won't use a forked version and you would be free to integrate the changes from any forked versions back into the mainline client.

Unless someone else step forward in the next week to work past anti-wmw entities I dont see any point in bothering to do anything

And another closed source project bites the dust. Selfish, selfish, selfish.

it seems the only ones interested in this community are the ones who want it called RENMX and thats not a network I wish to support nor will I.

My PM box is open to anyone who puts the whole community at the top of their list.

Those of us who have worked together under the RenMX flag have done so for the betterment of all MX. Be that the room channel list with its open API to both submit and retrieve rooms from its database, to the proxy blocker API and client software which are also open source, to our changes to file finder and Metis. All open, all information shared.

We've always put users interests first giving people choice. Never abused our blocklist tools, never withholding the best tools that people need to keep secure. When we patched WCS did we have to share that? Did we have to take requests from the community for which versions they wanted patched?

It is so disingenuous for you to point your finger at us like we're some plague when we've been putting out stable usable software for the past half decade that is all open and truly free. You should be ashamed for talking about us like that but I am not surprised that you say it, this is your persona, if we're not sipping the Ghostship koolaid we're the drudges of WinMX.

[GhostShip]

There is no time to waste on this, nor on your anti wmw rhetoric,

As I said in the last post if anyone is seriously interested in working for the benefit of the whole community I would be interested in a public chat room based technical/protocol discussional event so we could collectively move the community ahead without regard to whether Pri likes anyone or not, such motives have no place at this time

[Pri]

There is no time to waste on this, nor on your anti wmw rhetoric,

You're not WMW. I have a problem with you attacking RenMX. Toad, all the other people who work here are great. I just want that up for the record. Please note I never once said the words WinMXWorld or WMW once in this discussion.

[GhostShip]

You and I both know why you dont have the src to OurMx and you may also have forgotten the rebadged cake patch episode but I havent, I think the problem here is that I have never put myself nor wmw first and it embaresses me to see others trying to do such things.

[Pri]

You and I both know why you dont have the src to OurMx and you may also have forgotten the rebadged cake patch episode but I havent, I think the problem here is that I have never put myself nor wmw first and it embaresses me to see others trying to do such things.

You seem to be under the delusion that I personally want the source to OurMX to make some kinda RenMX clone out of it?. Everyone on here is telling you to open source it on github so the barriers to working on it are removed. I have also been asking Sean to open source Mato and he may do so. Again for the betterment of WinMX.

This way we would have an open source server and an open source client. Why doesn't hollow have the source? How about you answer that one? And I know why I don't have the source, because you're an egomaniac.

As for cake patch, I thought it'd be rather cool to have our own patch. I don't see the big deal. I never posted it anywhere, I never linked to it on our websites. The only people who had access to it were those who were given a direct link to its page and it was only ever shared in my own room with our own users.

And need I remind you, Tiny4eva came to me about the patch and said hey can you put a message on the page to give credit to Eagle for making it? Which I did immediately and then he offered to let me host a peercache as I had a dedicated server at the time and I hosted one for about a year or so. So don't even try to frame that like I'm some kinda asshole.

Facts are:
Amount of Open Source projects by Pri: 10+
Amount of Open Source projects by Ghostship: 0

[GhostShip]

"Everyone", don't you in fact mean you and Hollow who has been working alongside you for the last few years instead of assisting with OurMx when the call went out for more help ? Could that be the reason he doesn't have it either ?

I think you are what you are Pri and nothing I say one way or the other will make much difference, let the folks decide if I'm the person you claim as they are the only ones I try to work for anyway.

I don't know why I am even wasting my good time on you .. maybe I do, I thought that you had seen the error of your way and been looking to make amends and I am an old softy who likes a good ending (ask KM), it seems once someone acts a certain way they are doomed to repeat themselves, I cannot assist you further it seems and with me being "delusional" perhaps you too should no longer waste your own time eh 

[Pri]

"Everyone", dont you in fact mean you and Hollow who has been working alongside you for the last few years instead of assisting with OurMx when the call went out for more help ? Could that be the reason he doesnt have it either ?

I think you are what you are Pri and nothing I say one way or the other will make much difference, let the folks decide if I'm the person you claim as they are the only ones I try to work for anyway.

I dont know why I am even wasting my good time on you .. maybe I do, I thought that you had seen the error of your way and been looking to make amends and I am an old softy who likes a good ending (ask KM), it seems once someone acts a ceratin way they are doomed to repeat themselves, I cannot assist you further it seems and with me being "delusional" perhaps you too should no longer waste your own time eh 

I had to wade in originally because you were taking an anti-github stance in a discussion with White Stripes. Who said and I quote "personally id put all of ourmx on github".

Whitestrips has no affiliation with RenMX, he doesn't even come to my room and hasn't for years. And when I said everyone I was really referring to him, me and hollow. The people discussing Github in this thread with you. But Richy has also mentioned it on this forum it may even be earlier in this thread or another thread I forget which. And Josh also feels the same way in my personal discussions with him. Of course Josh is affiliated with RenMX so I imagine his opinion doesn't matter to you on this.

And you paint me like I'm some bad guy who hasn't changed his spots. I've not done anything bad, if you have facts you want to share with everybody to backup these libelous claims then please share them, I invite you to do so because I know I have a clear conscience as I have never done anything malicious, not in my personal life or on WinMX.

I think sometimes these rumors fly around so long people start believing them, I thought you were better than that Ghost, if I believed all the rumors about you I would think you were no better than a depraved rat but those kind of rumors swirl about all of us and are all proven to be untrue. I for example don't actually put backdoors in my software as the spammer would have people believe.

Last thing you say you want people to judge you as you are and stuff. Well a few posts ago you just said if no one helps you you'll pack the project in. Pretty selfish that. We're all saying we'll help if you let us, you say, we can't be trusted and so it's a vicious circle of "we'll help" and you going "don't want it" until the project is ultimately terminated by yourself for selfishness.

I look forward to the open sourcing of Mato, it's probably our best bet at this point folks.

[hollow87]

Ghostship you want OurMX to be finished I assume.  You say you don't have the time nor knowledge to finish it.  That alone is a reason to open source it.

You say you don't want people to fork it however when they do fork it you can still see the original repo.

Let's look at your reasons why you don't want people to fork OurMX (kinda against the name though if its not really Our's)

OurMx is worth the time and focus of the whole community but it seem many have no time for it but wish to work on projects that we already have by the bucket load such as chat servers and chat clients, that's great for them personally but in the big picture its time wasted and users lost, please address the real issue here of creating an environment that will deliver the way ahead and please don't spend your focus on whether OurMx will be put on github to be forked off under some other name as that to me is the height of despicable behaviour.

Now lets look at a GitHub fork.


Looks like it says it was forked from mono/mono and it has a fork icon shall we look at the original repo now?


Hmm... that's odd its not forked from anywhere must be the original repo then icon is even different.

I don't remember either of you helping to create OurMx nor offer one single line of code to it,  unlike Pri Hollow was asked to join the effort back when OurMx was just getting started as MxShare, is it now our fault you have sat in the wings for the last 4 years Hollow ?

I'm sorry I don't have a lot of free time to devote to jumping through your hoops to contribute to OurMX I said if it was easier for me to contribute I would.  At which point you replied with saying about about making a secondary only one.

It seems once again that nothing thats being said is comprehended nor adressed fully, instead the questionable mantra of "release the OurMx src and we might fix something one day" is being spouted, sounds like a poor deal for the community to me and one I dont intend to bother with it if thats all your interested in.

I think I need to emulate others here and sit around castigating anyone who works on an MX related project for not handing it over to me so I can fork rebadge it.

Unless someone else step forward in the next week to work past anti-wmw entities I dont see any point in bothering to do anything, it seems the only ones interested in this community are the ones who want it called RENMX and thats not a network I wish to support nor will I.

My PM box is open to anyone who puts the whole community at the top of their list.

Kinda funny I'm pretty sure that's what I am thinking about here.  Without it being open source it wont survive.  If you used any of RoboMX code still it needs to be open source under a GPL license else your just as guilty as "rebranding" as a normal looking github fork.

And to say we are not thinking about the community that is just shameful where would OurMX be without YOU having access to RoboMX where it be without Nushi releasing MXSock code.  Where would it be without the current open source projects out there WinZO, to me it seems you do not want to loose control of your work. You do not want someone fixing a bug without going through you first.  It seems OurMX has turned more into you making a name for your self again than for the community.

When and if this project is finally for the community again you can count me in to help but while its just your project no thanks. Closed source projects on a network that is dying just goes against the community. 

Edit:

"Everyone", don't you in fact mean you and Hollow who has been working alongside you for the last few years instead of assisting with OurMx when the call went out for more help ? Could that be the reason he doesn't have it either ?

I never asked for it nor would I have the time to do it the way you share code with a .zip file when or if it is ever open and for the community I will fix what I can when I can

[GhostShip]

Yup what a selfish guy I have been all of these years (ten at the last count) whilst only you can walk the streets with your head held high 


Getting back to the topic here : My PM box is still open to those who want to help both WinMX in general and the OurMx project specifically in deciding the way ahead given our current situation.

[GhostShip]

Btw Hollow if your going to re-enter the discussion regarding open src at least try to keep up with whats been said today, we all agree open src is the way ahead but not whilst OurMX has a damaging primary protocol built into it as standard, its frustrating for sure so the idea was to get around a table and work out a way ahead, this isn't about what you guys want and what lengths you wish to go to to get the src on github, it just wont happen if its a bad deal for the community and I feel it is at this time.

[Pri]

Yup what a selfish guy I have been all of these years (ten at the last count) whilst only you can walk the streets with your head held high 

I am definitely not the only person on this network who can walk the streets with my head held high. I stand on the shoulder of giants when it comes to WinMX. Bender for example, he has given more to the network with his open source projects than anyone I can think of. And we have all benefited from his open work. I doubt OurMX would even exist if it wasn't for Benders open sourced RoboMX client.

[Pri]

Btw Hollow if your going to re-enter the discussion regarding open src at least try to keep up with whats been said today, we all agree open src is the way ahead but not whilst OurMX has a damaging primary protocol built into it as standard, its frustrating for sure so the idea was to get around a table and work out a way ahead, this isn't about what you guys want and what lengths you wish to go to to get the src on github, it just wont happen if its a bad deal for the community and I feel it is at this time.

Well it took you four years to reach this point, I'm sure it wont take you four years to remove the Primary protocol and bundle it as a closed source resource. Once that's accomplished you can put it on github.

[hollow87]

Btw Hollow if your going to re-enter the discussion regarding open src at least try to keep up with whats been said today, we all agree open src is the way ahead but not whilst OurMX has a damaging primary protocol built into it as standard, its frustrating for sure so the idea was to get around a table and work out a way ahead this isn't about what you guys want and what lengths you wish to go to to get the src on github, it just wont happen if its a bad deal for the community and I feel it is at this time.

So Ghostship are you saying once you get the primary protocol separated from the rest of the code it would be on github/gitlab/bitbucket or are you going to do the archaic way of still passing around .zip files?

[Pri]

If he goes with the zip method once any of us gets it we can just put it on github and get out of the dark ages anyway. But now I've said that we'll probably never get it lol

[White Stripes]

put potential tools of mass destruction into the hands of fools

if they wanted a specific DDoS tool those exist... as of now winmx -is- destroyed... no search no browse beyond 5000 files (design flaw) and no channel list.. have to go to joshs website for that....  and sit and watch peerblock sometime... winmx tries to connect to a little bit of everything... a primary connection barely keeps winmx glued together while carrying mostly superfluous traffic.....  ....its dead jim.... the opennap side of things isnt any better.. ppl are moving away from it and it has maybe 100 unique users total across all the servers...

Use a GPL license. No one will be able to distribute their changes without providing source. But at this point if you wait too long an open source client is going to happen and then all this current effort will be wasted.

winZO has a GPL licence and if you chant the right spell under a full moon it connects and.. huh.. the 'filter' on search allows one to see just the files they want... ...noone has done anything with winZO in quite some time either so it stands that source right there for the taking just isnt wanted by attackers since the attackers already have it figured out..... GS please... winmx is 1 and a half foot in the grave and its original source is most likely nowhere to be found even on a dusty harddrive... if you want it to live... in whatever form it takes... open source it... maybe ppl will come back with more than just kiddy porn (seriously have you seen what the wpn is serving up? im really serious here... its gross..)... if it dies out... well... then like opennap it will at least fade rather than go out in a fiery nosedive...