Network Degradation

[KM]

10 sources would at least get over the top of the flooders (who typically show no more than 4 sources for a file) by default, that would cause no distruption (10 UDP packets... big deal, 1 search result that is quite clearly not the file you want... big deal)

and of course they would have to admit their stupidity if they tried to claim that merely sending out search results is disruptive, would further prove that they don't have a clue why the macrovision/netsentry flooders are a problem

[p2p rules]

Leaving aside the accusations that KM was flooding this would cause for the moment..

How could he ensure it was the FIRST result?  You can sort those results by many criteria, alphabetical, REVERSE alphabetical, bitrate, filesize, just about anything, mine's usually sorted by reverse filesize with available files on top.. how does he make his result turn up first in my search, someone with a at the top, someone with z at the top.. all at once?

It's not like they haven't  accused him of doing that before & it should only be a message for  primary Pie / host file users not Pie / host file secondary users.
I didn't think about the search criteria part , but for users that use the default settings it would be the 1st results that they see.

[*^*Åü§§ïëgïrl*^*]

Following this thread I've noticed the further it gets into detail and implications the less I understand. I'm all for protecting the network for the benefit of us all... and as an MX host I often encounter people who are struggling with their connections. And this is where I come in to try and help... and as a total lay person I'm unable to fully explain to them what their unprotected primary is doing to the network. My point is, while you guys know what you want for the network you also possess the knowledge of the why's and wherefore's... leaving the normal user like myself with more questions than answers.

So, as a normal user without much tech knowledge can I ask Ghost if someone can initiate a thread designed specifically to explain in LAY terms what a good connection is and how to tell if your primary is being flooded. The usual question I get is 'What should my P=  S= and SPM= be?' I'm dial-up and have no idea since I'm always connected secondary. Or have it as a tutorial if you like. (If there's one already here I apologise profusely and please, point me in the right direction.) Things included in it could be: The WPN, what it is and why we need it.: a description of an unprotected primary P= S= SPM= versus a proteted one. If I have somewhere to send these friends of mine to give them a simplified explanation which is accurate then I feel like I'm doing my bit for the WPN.

This leads me to the other point I wanted to make regarding this topic...

I'm unaware of the percentages of those who use winmx for sharing as opposed to winmx as a chat platform. There's 1700+ channels that I can see. Take out your help rooms and you've still got a massive amount of users who are camped in rooms that are chat based for the sake of 'chat and share'. If the decision was made to forge ahead with the Pie primary IP blocking what effect does that have on the chat section ? If the network divides how far-reaching does that go ? Are the rooms to be split as well ? Because of my lack of knowledge I have no idea what effect that would have on my small patch of winmx turf. We've already lost users to DC++ and other platforms. If something like this were to eventuate we may lose the lot.(an average of 10 at any given time) If each chat room were to be the same... 1000 rooms x 10 people per room....=   lotsa lost users...  am I missing the point again ?

[chuck]

 For close to a year we have heard From Vladd and Pie that Km is going to kill MX. Well mx is still here and thanks to km and the DILL ,with alot less fake files. You have to say vladd when you say pie sorry but that is a fact.

 Pie for close to a year has said if we block IP's puppys will die and we will all go to jail and they will close mx. Well we all see that was wrong.

 Now Pie cant even agree on what to do they are 2 camps now.

 For over 6 months there have been threads on blocking the host file users. Some say no if you do they will say we are takeing over mx. Others say to not do it mx will die from fake file flooding.

 If ridding mx of fake files takes blocking Pie host file users,So be it. They are just as much to blame for allowing the fake files as the host of the files.  I dont hear any of you saying we should stop blocking the fake files. So why stop when we could really clean up mx.

 Its not like the pie users dont know what fake files are, or what the DILL is . No matter how hard pie and vladd has tried to hide the fact that there is a better fix ( a real patch ) it is known on his forum and all over mx.

 We all see now pie will never do any thing to really block the fake files, They have had over a year to do it and they are no closer to it than they were on day one.

 Do you really want to have a thread on Do we need to block Pie host file users a year from now?  If so then you are as much a couse of the fakes on mx as  pie.  There is no good time to do it you will loose some users but you will all so gain some when they see just how many fake files they will have to filter threw to find  a good file with the host file of pie.

 Point is you can bitch about it or you can fix it.  More people will try mx if they see no fake files than will if they are fake files.

 This is the only P2P program that has 2 ways to connect and really there is no need for 2. This is shown by this thread and all the fake files on mx.

[GhostShip]

I am in the process of reworking an old article I wrote on flooding that will be written in a simple to understand way with pictures to explain the hows and whys of wpn flooding, I agree that if we take certain measure then we do stand a chance of losing users, but as I am repeatedly making clear here those users I mentioned would be ones who are activly flooding the WPN with fakes unecessarily, the same point regarding the loss of users per room apply to the loss of users in general.

There are on average 30  active flooders at any one time, they connect to at least 50,000 host file users, they upload anything up to 3000 fake titles, anyone typing in a single search tearm  in the search box that is in a majorty of those lists is subjected to a massive bombardment of udp packets between 5,000 to 15 ,000 in number, these packets disrupt the network due to their sheer number and if your the hapless searcher your likely to find your system locked up or lagged badly, if you a primary user all this traffic can and does knock every secondary connected to you offline.

Its clear how the failure to block 30 IP's network wide can be leveraged against the entire system, its even clear to most that the flooders are there to see in broad daylight using tools like xnetstat, you need only take a look at the current blocklist and an unprotected users connections to see if you leave a gap they will exploit it, some flooding on the network is seeming to be a fact of life but it need not be if we all pull together, the fact that it may turn away one or two users should be weighed against the number of tens or more disappointed host file users leaving each week with a bad opinion of winmx.

This is a lose lose situation but its good we can at least discuss this and try to minimise the damage where possible, something that I,m proud to say is that all of the posters in this thread have been concerned about how this affects users and help moderate any extreme action, thank you all for this valuable role, but please lets pursue some action as to do otherwise is leading many hard core fans to anger and then apathy, it is after all within the realms of our influence to help stop 30 ips destroying an entire network, and thats the basic point being made.

[*^*Åü§§ïëgïrl*^*]

Thanks for the detailed explanation. I understand the need for flood prevention... and I agree with it. I'm going to push you further so I can discover the implications and ramifications that any action you might take would have regarding chat rooms. This is where I'm having the most trouble understanding what will happen 'if..'.

Let's say it's decided to go ahead with the IP blocking you're considering..

1. How ?
2. What happens next ?
3. What will it do to chat room members who are using Pie or even the hosts themselves who have yet to change over ?
4. As an MxHost am I expected to 'enforce the move to 3.0' ?...   and if I don't then what ?

I hope you can see my concerns Ghost, to get a clearer understanding of what's intended is what I'm looking for. The interests of my friends in chat are important to me... as well as the interests of the WPN.

Again, if I'm barking up the wrong tree let me know.

[SamSeeSam]

(chuck)
If ridding mx of fake files takes blocking Pie host file users,So be it. They are just as much to blame for allowing the fake files as the host of the files.  I dont hear any of you saying we should stop blocking the fake files. So why stop when we could really clean up mx.
Its not like the pie users dont know what fake files are, or what the DILL is . No matter how hard pie and vladd has tried to hide the fact that there is a better fix ( a real patch ) it is known on his forum and all over mx.

How many of us here will not want the network to be file free, so will most of the pie users. They are not being told about it. If they were, then I'm sure that 99% will come to the dll, 1% will sit in pie's room.
I'm opposed to blocking (users) as the users do not know that they are flodding, getting flodded adn being denied of a great experience. Why must they suffer for something they don't know? if all the pie users were knowing about it... then there would have been very few pie left. Let me ask you, out of say 10,000 users, normal users who are only concerned with uploading or downloading , How many of those will want fake files? You decide.

"it is known on his forum and all over mx."
yes it is known in his forum , but not all over winmx
----------------
I think that KM sending out results is the best way. I don't think any pie user will mind a few extra results, seeing as they already have many thousands to deal with. Plus if about 10 are necessary, well, this is something that is beneficial to all, it has no drawbacks. So I am all for this idea....

Cheers

[Maxe]

My two cents for what it's worth.
Blocking primary users from the network obviously has it's pro's and con's. I'm not going to even try and list
them as everyone will have there own list of what they are. For my part I think the con's outway the pro's at
this moment in time. My major concern is a public blocklist of private citizens IP's. Who knows where this list
will end up and how long someone might be blocked from connecting to the network.
My preferred option would be a new client with a "compatibility" tick box for any who would still like to connect to
the old network, but with this "compatibility" option disabled if they connect primary. Another reason for a new
client/protocol is it will bypass the current ISP filtering of WinMX file transfers as well.
If a new client is not feasible, maybe an updated "dll" doing the same as mentioned above. There is one drawback
to these options though. How to keep the current chat list and chat servers operational? I'm sure a solution can be
found though. I'll leave that in the hands of programmers much more competent than myself.
If none of this is possible then a blocklist might be the only solution, but not a public one and not one that is optional but enforced.
My reasons for it not being public are noted above and as for it being optional... we'll end up just being the same as we are now, as there will be those who just refuse to use it or those that know nothing about it.

[chuck]

Quote
SamSeeSam

I'm opposed to blocking (users) as the users do not know that they are flodding, getting flodded adn being denied of a great experience. Why must they suffer for something they don't know? if all the pie users were knowing about it... then there would have been very few pie left.

So everone should  suffer?

"it is known on his forum and all over mx."
yes it is known in his forum , but not all over winmx

Ive not talked to one person that has not heard of the dill or km.

Quote

 Maxe

 How to keep the current chat list and chat servers operational?

Sould we let the chat  destroy the file shareing on mx?

If they are really your friends they will change to the dill so they can talk to ya , if  you tell them. If not i guess they are not your friends.

I see now that most of you dont really care about stoping the fake files you just like the drama of talking about it.

If there was a way other than blocking the host file users it would have been done by now. Is it is now there is no reason for pie to switch to the dill . If you block them there is ,  or is it that you thank that the dill does not have enough users to hold the network together?

I thank it can and in fact grow more on its own than with pie host users.
 
Fact is with pie host users we have fake files and flooding. Allways will have .  if chat is all you care about you can allways use nushi 1.8 and just add the room in it and chat  and then use mx with the dill and stop the fake files and flooding.

There you got a fake free mx and your chat lol. im sure you can do this with more than nushi 1.8.

If not lets just bitch about fake files and flooding for another year.

[SamSeeSam]

Ok chuck many users who you have talked to know km or pie... But how many pie users have you talked to who do not know about them?
Even now, in the hideout, you just need to stay there to see the number of users with pie... Many read the instructions of the welcome bot and I presume, change to the dll. You Will see people still coming without any idea of winmxgroup into the winmxworld chatroom. I do not knowmuch about now as because of download limit of my ISP, I cannot be there often. But you can ask BB, MH or anyone else about it. There are still such people....innocent people....
I am not saying not to block those who use pie for the sake of it. I'm talking about the remaining 99% who get sick about it and don't know what to do. Those people do deserve a chance.
None of us except Km, Ghost or me here have an idea about the % of pie users. I do not think that it can be less that 15-20%.
Yeah I hope I am wrong and it is less, but I am pegging it at that. Which is why I like the idea of telling people via searches about the winmxworld patch.

Cheers

*Edit (sam) spell check changed winmxworld into wrong lol

[chuck]

Sam any one that has pie has heard of the great SOB  Sorry km they do call you that if you didnt know.

The first thing they say is dont run the DILL km made it.  Any time spent on vladd's form and you would know that and gem's forum as well. Im sure they never say that running the host file will help the flooders.  So pie host users not knowing of km or the dill is a little funny to say the lest.

Just telling them about the patch isnt going to clean up mx it may help but in the end there will be some that keep the host file so becouse of them we all should have fake files?

 For  a year now we have been telling the pie host users and all of mx about the DILL and the cause of the fake file flooding. If just telling them would have worked do you think we would still be haveing this thread?

Sure do a info in the searches but in the end the pie host file users will need to be blocked to rid mx of  the fake file flooding.

[Funnyface]

I've always wondered how much the pie team really cares for MX. When you go to their website, you see that they are offering a patch helping users getting reconnected, but does that mean they really care for the network?. They think their patch is user friendly, but then when we look at the pie members, we see that they don't even use their own patch with PG installed themselves.
Most of them don't even use WinMX, actually they run third party clients such as RoboMX. They don't run PG with the updated blocklist, heck, they don't even download with WinMX, because they can't.. because their patch is too shit to do it!
When they are asked about PG and fake files, they answer with things like "I only use WinMX for chatting, so I don't need it", "I don't use a primary connection, so I don't need it", "I use OpenNap to download, so I don't need it".
Does that mean their solution is so shit that they don't even want to use it themselves? And if that's the case, do they expect an average user to run it and be satisfied with it?
The pie team has been notified about the problem the flooders are causing to the network itself, but I guess if a pie member has to run primary for a short period, they ignore the blocking, because they don't want to install PG on their system.. who would like to install PG? Instead of installing PG like they are supposed to make every user do, they ignore it and say "If I run WinMX without blocking for a short period, it doesn't cause that much damage, there are already plenty of others out there already doing the same thing!".
So my conclusion to this is..
Pie is just a joke, a lie, and a scam! Don't trust Pie!
Pie is so shit that the creators of it won't even run it themselves!
Pie don't even use WinMX for downloading to know how bad the fake files are.
Pie has one single goal, that is to keep users away from KM's dll, not save the network.
Pie is 100% responsible of the flooding on the network.
Pie is here to destroy the network.
and last of all..
No, Pie don't care about WinMX.. Pie needs to go.

[SamSeeSam]

Chuck please understand that I am not talking about a few admins who have made a mess of things.

I am talking about and only about the users, and only the users. I have no reason to believe that so many users want pie. Whoever wants pie over the dll needs to go. I'd say put them in the blocklist immediately, But you do need to give that option to the user before you block him. Something which pie don't . Something that we must.

Just telling them about the patch isn't going to clean up mx it may help but in the end there will be some that keep the host file so because of them we all should have fake files?

Yeah when we have to deal with those 'some' Then kick them straight out of winmx no questions.
But cutting off 10,000 users to make sure 20-30 pie fanatics do not stay on winmx is not recommended. That and that only is my point. So when the pie user level goes to about below 1 to 5% then kick them out...

Cheers

[KM]

I have moved the post by Funnyface in to this thread as it seems to be a reply to this thread about the harm the maggots are causing (it was posted as a separate thread)

[bughunter]

and this is exactly why winmx wont survive...............
despite the over whelming evidence as to how destructive pie is, all that happins is excuses are made for them to stay............
the standard whinge is that the maggots are uses too...........no there not users at all.........there spreaders of a virus. who lie , deny and dercieve anyone stupid enough to believe them,.........there stated goal is the destruction of this network and so far there doing a damn fine job of it............fakes have not decreased one single bit infact there increasing........users are being knocked off line faster then the maggots can tell another lie..........if 10 thousand users have to be inconvienced to rid this network of the infestation known as pie then so be it...........
the maggots are never going to change........they will just seek to undermine this network as much as possible...........both nobby vladd and wat ever remains of the maggots are self confessed liars they have zero crerditabilty and only a fool such as dragon looser opps i mean dragon rider would ever believe anything coming from the maggots, anyone who has ever read one of dragon riders  post will know what im talking about.............
the other whinge is that we cant block the maggots as that would be doing as the maggots have claimed trying to control winmx...............fucking oath we want to control winmx or would you all rather vladd was in charge .................
reality is the reason  the maggots dont mention blocking is that they know nothing works, nobby admitted this.........PG2 blocks fuck alland any other third party programme is doomed to fail as well.............hence why the maggots dont mention it,why make someone use something that doesnt work...............then we supposidely have the interlectual side of pie sub human bob...........what a retard his posts claiming that bluetac list is more effective then winmxworlds is mindless stupdity...........clearly shows bob has never hunted for riaa or even considered blocking.........as for the acuracy of bluetacs list like pg2 defaults list there fucking useless as tits on a bull.....unless of course you consider the whole sale blocking of some isps, such as the 3.5 million or so ip from time warner to be accurate despite the fact no one can even prove that one ip from that range is even a riaa or netsentry flooder...........so much for accuracy..........hell lets just block every ip on the internet then it will be accurate right ay bob ? lol dipshit...........
i find it quiet funny that someone like funnyface can get it so right, while so many even within winmxworld get it so wrong...............
the one thing i do agree with nobby is that users are leaving winmx in droves, not because of the nasty km and winmxworld but because of pie there ongoing stupidity is setting standards even george w bush would be proud of........
so we have a choice do nothing let pie remain and watch as winmx slowly but surely dies....its only a matter of time...........and no we will never reach the thousands on the maggot patch, there is no way too..........unlerss pie breaks of course..........
or we can do something about pie once and for all...........short term pain for long term gain.............but then we all know the answer to this thread dont we..........do nothing because we might offend some ppls delicate sensibilities...........

[chuck]

 WOW something is wrong here i agree 100% with Bughunter.  God help us all!

[SamSeeSam]

anyone stupid enough to believe them

Pie have never given an alternative option other than a host file. You cannot equate ignorance to stupidity. If they have not been given an option, then they will obviously take the one that was presented to them directly. Many pie users will willingly come to the dll if they are told about. So that is why I do not want to block them off.

Vladd and his site members apart, How many other pie users have you talked to? And see their views? What makes you think that those users will be as biased and idiotic as the pie team are?
If we kick out pie and we lose a good part of the users as well, is that any kind of victory for winmx? If so many users come here and ask why they were blocked without giving them an option, what answer are you to give to them? You need to weed out the patch not the users.
Talk to someone who is a user with pie, running on primary, IS NOT A MEMBER OF MXPIE and then then form opinions. If you will kindly come to the hideout, the you will be able to see the number of users who still have pie and who are more than willing to change. Mabye they might not ask much. But the bot does give clear instructions on how to change the patch.


You can't simply just block someone just because he does something that
you think is wrong, rather than correct him, you are trying to pull the trigger on him.

Cheers

[reef]

WinMx would take a helluva wallop losing that many users by blocking pie
but it wouldnt be as hard of a wallop as a year ago.Slowly but surely
WinMx gained more users weekly by word of mouth,and by both sites providing
patches to get users conncted.I think all of us know that for WinMX to
ever be what it once was,pie needs to go.The rebuilding process will
result in a clean WinMX that every user will be able to enjoy...and
once again as new users join and pass on by word of mouth,this great
p2p program they found... WinMX can catch on in the p2p world like it
did in the past.But just by typing into google 'WinMx' the first 3
sites i see are WinMX 2007 which i don't know what the hell it is,but
assume its probably a spyware riddled program... so for the newbies,that
may have heard about WinMX from a friend most probably will enter
those websites before even seeing the winmxgroup site.I know nothing
about hosting a website but i think it needs to stand out more than...

"WinMX Group, free patch download!Once WinMX is installed, you'll
have access to one of the largest and most ... When you download
WinMX, you're getting what is needed for WinMX and only ...
www.winmxgroup.com/ - 3k - Cached - Similar pages"...

The word "patch"
might have new users wondering why this p2p program needs patched.
Maybe 2 sites are needed...the existing website and another for the
websurfer looking for a new p2p program to use... i dunno but maybe
something more along the lines of "WinMX The Original WinMX! 100%
Free (always has been and always will be)...Absolutely NO Spyware
Bundled with this program..... blah blah blah.....".Something like
that might catch the users eye and bring them to the correct site?
No Offense to winmxgroup site it's just a thought lol

[chuck]

SAM Ive talked to alot of people that use the pie patch. They all say they found it in the v44 room and were told that if they used the DILL that km made winmx would be closed , that it was against the law, that pie was the only way to go. They are told not to trust KM in any way. Sam you act like people on mx have never heard of the DILL some may not but more have than have not.

There has been a option for thr pie host file from the first day the DILL came out.Ive been telling people about it for close to a year and many others have too.This site tells people about it and so have many others. the only sites i know of that ive gone too that do not are vladd44 and gem's site and if you think they are going to shoot themselves in the foot and say use the dill your verry wrong.

Its been close to a year and if there are people that dont know of the dill that you know of maybe your not doing your part in telling them.
Maybe in a dream world you could just get every one to shitch to the dill and be happy together, but after a year it hasnt happened and every one has been getting the word out .

THE PEOPLE IVE TALKED TO ARE NOT MEMBERS OF MX PIE. Thought id use caps like you did sam We all knew what you were saying.

You ask : If we kick out pie and we lose a good part of the users as well, is that any kind of victory for winmx?

The answer is yes! No MORE PIE HOST ALLOWING FAKE FILE FLOODING.
That is best for MX.

Some time you just have to make the tuff call.

You state on another thread : Again I am reminding that this is NOT about fake files but about and ONLY about pie primaries.
Your views if any will happily be accepted and considered if you will post them here:

Again i say if it wasnt for the pie primaries allowing the fake file flooding there would be no reason to think about blocking pie.

This has nothing to do with pie as people just that the host file allows fake files to be flooded on the WPN.

We can allow this to go on for another year and loos many more people over the flooding i know of about 20 old regs of mx that has left over this and many new users that said between the flooded files and fighting they could find a better program.

You seam to have allready made up your mind on not blocking the pie host files so why did you even start theese two threads? Its what is going to have to be done or we just need to move on and forget about a clean MX and run the pie patch. The drama is getting old.

[GhostShip]

It pains me that once again I have to post here in pointing out the suggestion was not to block pie users in general but those who are not protecting the network, perhaps someone has better figures than I do on the amount of pie folks blocking the flooders ?

It seems to me that doing nothing and allowing thousands of gigabytes of bandwidth to be stolen from us, to sit by and watch folks fall offline and to be hit with  denial of service attacks that are 100% powered by hosts file users does not allow me much sympathy for those users.

In the ideal world those offering the host file would have informed folks of the need to block, asking other users to clear up their mess afterwards is hardly being fair, yet that is the situation we find ourselves in.

Whether anyone likes to hear it or not users are leaving the network, so while I feel sympathetic in one respect for those duped by pie into flooding the WPN I would sleep better in my bed knowing more users are not being driven away by those folks who operate unprotected.

Only yesterday it seems openly declared that its pie policy to flood the WPN and as such I have no hesitation in working to oppose a team lead by those profiting from and attacking other users.

The basic line is that the WPN will shrivel and die if we sit about feeling sorry rather than take action to save the patient, no action will be taken that is not backed by a majority of you all, but I would be wrong to not point out a problem and a solution unpopular as it may be to folks here.

We will continue to stand firm and united even if no action is taken, its not for any one of us to run amok while the way ahead is not clear to all, if folks do not have the stomach for a surgical slice of the bleed in the main WPN body then I will sit by and watch us shrink until a scream is heard from users if thats the way it has to be, I hope it does not come to that but I can only offer my own opinions and remedies as I see fit.