Author Topic: Virgin ISP - Throttling For All Users (Read 6833 times)

Bearded Blunder · « **Reply #20 on:** May 12, 2007, 02:14:07 pm »

I think a point that may have been missed by many here is.. if they throttle the mickey takers to half-speed at peak times, this means that as a member of the majority light - moderate users, my connection will actually run FASTER at peak times than it did before throttling, something which will delight me if i have updates etc. to download....

J a M e S · « **Reply #21 on:** May 16, 2007, 03:30:01 pm »

ive seen sooooooo many people whingeing about this..

the main view is "if i download more than 3GB between 4-12pm i get limited for 5mb for 4 hours" and for me thats fine, yes, im a heavy user, and i will probably trigger it all the time, i running 4 computers a web server and my mum sometimes downloads, the idea of this whole thing is that mostly the people on 20mb are not jamming up the network for the rest of us.

all the time, i see people whining about over subscribed UBR's and how they get slow speeds, think of it like this

it one of ur neighbors are sat there making there own personal copy of the internet and ur complaining bout dial up speeds, then u'll want a fair use policy

GhostShip · « **Reply #22 on:** May 16, 2007, 06:16:30 pm »

I like to think of this as they sell it to me, they offer a service and I accept their terms, I pay for what they offered, is it right for them to break an agreement with those who took no part in selling it (IE: the customer).

If they where honest no one would complain but when we see throttling/limits/limiting introduced after a barrage of publicity to gain more customers as we are seeing I dont see anything wrong with speaking honestly about what they offer being different to what they want to deliver, the fault is 100% with the sellers.

As for the four folks eating the chips anthology its more than clear that their is no agreement made with the customers to address the consumption habits of others, they pay for a service and the ISP has full control over delivering what they claim, no one is forcing them to take the customers money, and a deal is a deal.

Perhaps when it comes around to paying my bills I should tell the ISP that others have a right to a share of my earnings and they should accept my unilateral decision to cash throttle :twisted:

Bearded Blunder · « **Reply #23 on:** May 16, 2007, 06:49:48 pm »

They broke no agreement though, it was always in the terms that speeds varied, not only that but they've also doubled the maximums 3 times without me asking... so it slows to 4 times what i first signed up for IF i use heavily during those hours.. it's STILL faster (being shared) than if everyone downloads pell mell at those times & swamps the system.. it's a half decent way of dealing with the issue..

In point of fact i've actually never noticed any effect.

KM · « **Reply #24 on:** May 17, 2007, 03:17:34 am »

ghostship:

considering you are talking about the only ISP that has ever made any public announcement about any kind of throttling, and considering they have in fact made *several* major public announcements about it, as well as it being clearly stated within the terms and conditions on sign up - how can you possibly claim that it is some change in agreement snuck in without telling anyone? they told the entire world (not just their customers) about it well in advance - the fact that everyone was throwing their support behind the idea before they even started doing it tells you they must have known about it and it couldn't have been some mighty secret

I think you need to stop talking about your completely unrelated ISP with completely different policies and trying to pretend it's virgin media, your ISP snuck it in, your ISP does it unfairly to disrupt traffic, your ISP is however not virgin media and therefore your poor experiences with a completely different type of throttling have absolutely nothing to do with it - your ISP breaks your p2p, it screws up your downloads, the virgin throttling does neither of those, and can not even be compared in the slightest way

in fact every single forum I've seen with comments on it every poster has either said they want it to come in to effect *sooner* or they completely misunderstood what was being said, that by itself should tell you this is not sneaking some unfair restrictions on innocent users, they are more than aware of it and fully support it

I for one can't wait until they get around to implementing this slowing it down to really fast speeds during peak time, it will stop those idiots who download more than they can possibly use with absolutely no effect *at all* for legitimate users (by legitimate i mean people not burning bandwidth for the sake of burning bandwidth)

let me put it this way, pretty decent quality video can be encoded in 1Mbit, the absolute bottom package will have 1Mbit of download bandwidth when throttled, therefore even if you downloaded 24 hours worth of decent quality video per day and watched it 24/7 you would still be able to download enough... once you take in to account the fact that you need to sleep and need toilet breaks, if the lower throttles speeds were in effect 24/7 you would still be able to download more decent quality video than it would be possible for you to watch, and it's not even in effect 24/7!

the *only* people who are going to have a problem are people who download for the sake of downloading and have never even opened half of the stuff they download, those are the people stealing other peoples bandwidth and those are the people who need to be controlled

do you buy a single ticket on a bus and expect all of the seats for yourself?

because as the person who bought the seat next to you, i am not impressed in the slightest

I bought a shared connection because like many I can't afford a dedicated connection to myself, and I don't expect to get a dedicated connection for the price of a shared one - I also don't expect to pay for 1 ticket on a bus and get the entire bus to myself

btw, 4 virgin customers have posted on this thread:
James: supports the intended throttling
Beardy: supports the intended throttling
Myself: supports the intended throttling
Victim: not sure if he even understands it, the initial post in response to your "they are going to unfairly limit and throttle and block" claims (which are all incorrect) was against the throttling, however after it being explained more seems to not be commenting either way

now go on, try and have another claim about how this is some sneaky thing we don't know about that they are doing against our wishes and to make our connections worse, i dare you...

GhostShip · « **Reply #25 on:** May 17, 2007, 07:21:30 am »

The point seems lost on you KM, customers are offered a service and then during the lifetime of the service the terms and condiitions shouted about loudly are changed , most folks are aware that the iSP has a blank cheque to change things in the small print but regardless its not the heavily promoted service they signed up for.

You are proving very entertaining with your attempts to personalise this news matter, perhaps you are unaware of the purpose of this colunm ?
Let me help you out a little, its to generate discussion as it has done and I play the devils advocate, for the massive publicity you claim took place regarding the throttling I cant see any mention of it on this site so its lucky I took the time to do so as its very likely to affect some users, my job is done, I have informed, discussion is taking place.

Bearded Blunder · « **Reply #26 on:** May 17, 2007, 07:36:59 am »

The terms have at no point changed though, while they were NTL they reserved the right to take appropriate action against anyone who's activity adversely impacted on the network, (throttle traffic, or even suspend service) this is ALL they are doing..

It's long overdue & highly appropriate action at that!

GhostShip · « **Reply #27 on:** May 17, 2007, 07:53:00 am »

For two months Virgin have been leaking information about this issue before letting the cat out of the bag, whilst you say the terms have not changed the service obviously has and that is whats important to its users, many of whom are never likely to study the terms let alone read them.

KM · « **Reply #28 on:** May 17, 2007, 11:39:43 am »

"leaking"... no, more like "placing all over their website"

http://allyours.virginmedia.com/html/internet/traffic.html

that's one of their pages where they are sneaking in changes and not telling anyone... (btw you'll notice that is under the section labeled "everything you need to know")

and it's no secret that it is not something new, the only thing that is new is they are standardising the policy nation wide and enabling it all the time, they have always had throttling available to them, and have used it many times when an area has had problems as a temporary measure while they upgrade capacity in an area (NTL have done it a fair bit more than Telewest did, but both had the options there where required, apparently it's a standard feature of the cable equipment they've been using) - how do people know this? because when people effected by temporary throttling have phoned up they have been told about it, not lied to, told about the throttling...

Bearded Blunder · « **Reply #29 on:** May 17, 2007, 12:48:40 pm »

lol, yes the service has changed since NTL & telewest merged.. I've seen a MARKED IMPROVEMENT
intelligent traffic management will help more, unlike the braindead "lets block file transfer prgrams, nobody will complain in case we ask what they use them for" approach being used by many other ISPs which is somewhat underhanded as an approach..

the only people who will ever even notice being throttled are those who sit all the time watching their download sppeds & never even watching the multiple movies they'd have to download in order to hit the throttling limit.. perhaps it'll give them time to watch those?

meanwhile the other 95% of us will enjoy full speed even during peak hours, if we stay within what (from the page KM linked) are pretty generous allowances.. (3GB between 4pm & midnight on my package).... who has the disk space to hit that often?

GhostShip · « **Reply #30 on:** May 17, 2007, 06:11:37 pm »

I note the date on that page you link to is missing KM making your observation rather pointless. May 8th is the date they announced this and there have been leaks and rumours as far back as feburary, so much for being honest, lets face it the chronology of this is in the open for all to see, the BBC noted itself that Virgin was suffering an increase in user churn, obviously folks unlike yourself and Bearded voting with their feet, Virgin then makes an announcement to try to claw back some of those users.

What seems to have been lost time and again in this topic is the fact that folks are not going to be getting the same service they originally signed up for and it wont matter hoiw many ways or times people try to justify it, thats the original point I made, an nothing said so far conflicts with it.

KM · « **Reply #31 on:** May 17, 2007, 06:26:31 pm »

the users leaving ages ago has absolutely nothing to do with some new throttling policy which btw they haven't even rolled out to the majority of the network yet (they are doing it area by area)

the users leaving is mostly due to the drop in customer service (at least people used to telewest service have noticed a drop, the ex-NTL customers think it's an improvement... lol) and many due to the issues with sky TV channels, the few people leaving due to internet issues are due to poor laggy connections - which is what this throttling is there to *fix*

you are correct in that page was not put there before they started any throttling, because that would be completely stupid, however it was put there when they started rolling out the changes (it was put up at the same time they changed the site to a 20Mbit top package, as the throttling is being enabled at the same time as the 20Mbit), prior to those announcements both things have been reported widely due to them making repeated announcements about both to the press and to any customers phoning up with issues (the majority of them in non-throttled areas phoning up about poor service during peak time)

any claims that they kept it secret don't match up with the facts when it was being reported before they put the policy in to effect anywhere, clearly they didn't just take a wild guess that virgin were going to start doing it and just had a wild guess and happened to come up with the correct figures for what will trigger the throttling and to what extent

this will make 99% of virgin customers happy, and will give the other 1% a choice, either stay with virgin who will let them max it out most of the day but limit their speed during the evenings, or go with another ISP that wouldn't let them get away with anything near to that... somehow i doubt they are going to be losing customers, gaining customers yes, keeping more customers due to improved service, yes, losing customers no...

Bearded Blunder · « **Reply #32 on:** May 17, 2007, 06:28:36 pm »

But i AM getting the service i signed up for, so is KM & so is everyone else.. it's not MY fault if consumers didn't read the terms before signing them, neither is it Virgin Media's.. they've changed nothing the terms always permitted them to do this...

the main thing to do is READ CONTRACTS before signing.. if you don't like the terms because they contain clauses to protect the company's network.. go look for an isp without such terms.. (you won't find one) those terms have been there all along, & you won't find any without such terms, so far as i'm aware the only ISP who actually SPELLS OUT how they will be applied is Virgin Media.. so if you don't like honesty in an isp.. sign up with any of the others who's terms also permit such actions, & traffic shaping by application/protocol, but don't tell you how it will be applied or when...

i prefer clarity as we now have to the "pig in a poke" type deal you buy with anyone else... (unless ofc you pay 10 times the amount plus for a leased line & a guarantee you can get those sorts of speed all the time)

KM · « **Reply #33 on:** May 17, 2007, 06:47:02 pm »

actually there are plenty of ISPs who have contracts that don't allow them to throttle and who state they don't throttle, those *all* throttle in the least fair way possible and lie about it

virgin are allowed to throttle, they announce they are throttling, and yet they do the minimum amount of throttling needed in the least disruptive way possible... now if only they'd spend less time telling everyone about how they are rolling out throttling and more time working on getting my area throttled, I can't wait for a lag free connection I can use any time

GhostShip · « **Reply #34 on:** May 17, 2007, 07:42:32 pm »

If your happy with your service like KM and Bearded seem to be, then its all good, if you like an ISP to provide what they advertise on the big flashy adverts that swayed you into signing a contract with them ,your s**t out of luck.

As I mentioned earlier many ISP contracts are black holes in terms of giving you any promise of a service, that being said I personally feel this throttling is the slippery slope, first we see logical justifications and next we see more and more limits imposesd and more excuses seen to justify those when infact KM and Bearded both make the case clear that there are simple over-subscription problems with the network they use and thats why measures like this are half pallatable, previously even the pied piper would have been hard pressed to draw back lost customers.

Lets see how the year progresses as they force their customers to tighten their belts whilst continuing to demand the same payment for less service, when you order a pint its what your entitled to.

Example of gathering customers when they knew they where planning to throttle them, notice throttling is not mentioned in either of these news links.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/6343341.stm

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/6638013.stm

More impressed customers having issues pre throttling announcement, its claimed virgin central is resource hungry and users are the ones making up the shortfall of bandwidth.

http://forums.hexus.net/showthread.php?t=106514

http://www.chetnet.co.uk/portal/forum/showthread.php?t=7945

Yet more happy customers

http://www.digitalspy.co.uk/forums/showthread.php?t=573551

http://www.avforums.com/forums/showthread.php?p=4801917

I have yet to locate anyone happy with Virgins actions outside of this forum.

KM · « **Reply #35 on:** May 17, 2007, 08:32:20 pm »

i rest my case...

to summrise those links ghostship just posted:

first one, irrelivant, nothing to do with anything, merely an announcement that they renamed

second one a story about how them losing customers is not because of throttling

third one someone upset about the lack of throttling (aka the congestion problems that the throttling is there specifically to solve)

fourth one a thread that starts with typical "oh no throttling" comments, then as it's explained what it's actually about there aren't any negative comments at the end - it was also during one of the initial tests, and you'll notice the reason for the original upset was low speeds, which will not be in the national throttling scheme

fifth one is absolutely nothing - it's someone posting asking if anyone knows about it and a response of of course they do

sixth one that post you link to is a satisfied customer who is very happy with it and is happy about the throttling

now only did you not seem to find all these majority of customers that you claim are unhappy, you did in fact find those happy customers you claim don't exist... lol

and btw, they provide exactly what they claim to provide, with the exception of some areas (such as mine) where there are issues at peak time, they claim to throttle to solve it but currently do not, i am waiting for them to provide this service as announced...

GhostShip · « **Reply #36 on:** May 18, 2007, 07:32:42 am »

What nice rose coloured spectacles your wearing KM

Of course Virgins customers are so happy they are leaving it seems.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/6664489.stm

Quote

BT has overtaken Virgin Media to once again become the UK's largest broadband provider, the telecom firm has said.
The group said it had won 26% of the market and now had 3.66 million broadband customers.

A quick check on the dates of the posts listed above KM would show that as claimed we saw a massive publicity drive and as you yourself confirmed no mention of throttling, even though it was being leaked that such a system was about to be rolled out, good ol honest virgin.

KM · « **Reply #37 on:** May 18, 2007, 08:23:02 am »

well that just proves that customers have been leaving during the time period with no throttling - obviously all a result of the throttling that wasn't there, is that what you are trying to claim?

you been reading the music industry bosses handbook again?

GhostShip · « **Reply #38 on:** May 19, 2007, 10:48:54 pm »

It is more likely yourself is the reader of such a manual, as stated many times I,m not happy with any ISP taking money for a service they dont intend to supply, you seem rather pro throttling and that could be why we are not likely to see an anti throttling patch at anytime soon.

(actually folks there are real reasons why that feature could not be included in the patch currently but dont say anything to KM, I expect miracles as standard

)

Bearded Blunder · « **Reply #39 on:** May 20, 2007, 05:26:13 am »

Quote from: GhostShip on May 19, 2007, 10:48:54 pm

..... I,m not happy with any ISP taking money for a service they dont intend to supply ......

So would I be unhappy, but they're supplying the service it always stated, they've even regularised why it (as stated in their terms) varies and when..
Stop trying to paint Virgin black for being the only honest ISP out there..