clafirication on official winmxworld policy

[unbannable icedragon]

as a long time supporter of both this forum and the winmxworld room it now dismays me that certain people are acting just like a certain group from 2 yrs ago........
secret committees.........
banning people who disagree with the secret committees end game...
thus denying the community the information they require to make an intelligent  judgement on this matter........
lieing there asses off no one has ever made software that didnt have bugs or exploits, and by susgesting this new method of connection would be without exploit or bugs is a flat out lie............
there now would also appears to be differences in statements by quicks and by nobass as to what this connection solution is based on.........funny that.........
for over two years quicks you have posted against the very thing you are now doing.........why...........change of heart or just more lies and deciet..............
no one has appointed you to risk winmx by cuddling up to the very scumbags you have posted so many times against........
vladd cant be trusted end of story.....we have all seen the damage this idiot has caused.........and its simply mindless to be involved with this maggot and his merry band of retards.............
the posts in the last 24 hours or so clearly show you are wrong and that the community has some serious reservations about this plan.........you cannot deny what both km and merlin are saying, as it is fact..............exploits exist and nothing you create can possibly be without even more exploits that the cartel or even other parties may use to bring winmx down.......
winmx isnt yours to risk.........and this current strategy you are endorsing will place winmx at serious risk.........do you not see this?.........are you now so blind to the consiquences...........pie are not worth risking winmx for...........

[unbannable icedragon]

and as for you me_here.........what threats and blackmail, or are you just another lier too...........
i couldnt give  a rats ass what you think..........period........like your partner your now justa lieing schemeing pie maggot.........
who gave you permission to risk winmx ?........think you own it do you.........secret committees  self appointing themselves to risk what isnt theres..........but i see this is really a anti km campaign, your words give you away.........
like vladd before you, you seem to be under the illusion winmx is yours and you can do what you please with it.............
well guess what WRONG..............
like pie before you, you ban those you cannot control, lie decieve and scheme. with those that cant be trusted,suddenly you find nobass a trust worthy person when anyone who has been in wmw know full well what you think of him in reality......
yet now you plot scheme  and maje back door deals with those the community despise and mistrust.........
and all we get from you and quicks is trust us we know what were doing.........WRONG........by your own posts and defense of
of this stupidity you clearly arent trust worthy.......like vladd before you ,you have abused the trust the community has placed in you...........oh how low you have now become, exactly what you posted so many times against.........any creditabilty you once had is now sadly gone............and as for your lame excuse as to my banning try reading nobass posts but then hes your suck up m8 now isnt he......beyond reproach........must like your lame defense of the mecca for banning me from the room for doing nothing but fixing the mess he created ..........
in the past i have honoured the bans placed on me but from now on im unbannable and will continue to post untill this stupidity is stopped and you and quicks are exposed for the lieing schemeing pie maggots you have now become.........

[GhostShip]

By your own logic Ice there is no need to reply to any of your rants.

I do fail to see how you or anyone else showing support for KM turning over information to Macrovision helps/supports winmx though.

[]-[êll.Ôñ.ËÀR'][']-[.]

still waiting for a reply to my legitimate post as promised or is it only abusive ones that get answers afteral?

[GhostShip]

Your quite correct in your summing up there Hell, I am writing a tutorial style page for you all to read with diagrams etc as I  promised and I will try to ensure its  completed as rapidly as possible, I am however having to try to dufuse a lot of anger behind the scenes that is taking up the vauable time I should have been spending on writing up  the promised info, I hope you and others accept my apologies for the delay 

[unbannable icedragon]

oh i see asking questions to which you fail to answer  is now a rant  how convienant..........
you have failed misserably to provide a single shred of evidence of how this shame is going to improve winmx.....despite being asked multiple times by different forum users...........
as i said if you cant answer the hard questions then that says alot about your plan dont it........and banning people who ask these questions is just lame........but goes to show your now no different to vladds pie which you posted against so many times in the past........you have become what you so despised...........
and what is the difference bewtween km killing winmx and you and your band of self appointed dictators doing it......you fail to realize your actions will do exactly the same thing kill winmx.................thou i dont think km will proceed but you if you can get away with it will certainly move forward.............
dont know whats gone wrong with you of late and frankly i dont care...........just neither you nor anyone else will get away with endangering winmx without the broader community getting the facts which you are now so busyly trying to hide.....
neither km merlin myself anfd other posters are wrong in what were saying.......just you dont like the message because it compromises your hidden agender...........
you of all people should know that self appointed committees trying to decide winmxs future will never succeed....like pie before you this secret committee and its agender   will be stopped too.............

[]-[êll.Ôñ.ËÀR'][']-[.]

no worries just thought it had got lost ty

[TheMacDaddy]

Ok here goes.......

I have read every single post on here    ALL 13 PAGES !!!!!!!!

Now what do i see ???????

I see alot of once good friends here going at it hammer and tounge about weather a patch for WinMX should be open source or closed source....AND NOW IT MUST STOP ONCE AND FOR ALL.

Dammit people have you all fell out of your prams or had your bottoms smacked by your mommies ??????
My children act more grown up then some of the posts i have seen and and to be honest the likes of MXPie both factions and most of the rest of the p2p world must be having one hell of a great laugh at us all.

But with that said i wish to address somethings here to see if i myself can bring a end to all this crap......

BB,Ice and KM
I understand how angry you all must feel over all this and i also understand your worries over what a open source fix for WinMX could do and the damage it can cause.
BUT....
If i am not mistaken wasnt it yourself ice whom wanted a end to MXpie and at one point even wanted them took of WinMX by using the .dll to block them from connecting to the WinMxWorld caches ?????
Also another person i will address a little later in this post (Nobby) claimed all along the only reason they wouldnt use the .dll was because it was made by KM and that he was sure there was some kind of attack hidden within it.
Well the way i see it is if a fix is made by someone other then KM for WinMX it can be kept closed source because MXPie would still be willing to use it as the one reason they wouldnt before (as in it was made by KM) has been removed from the making of the fix. Thus bring a end to MXPie fix.
OR WAS IT REALLY JUST A WAR TO SEE WHOM COULD CONTROL MOST OF WINMX NOBBY ??????

Km. even though i have the uttermost respect for you it really saddens me to see the threats you made within this post about handing of the exploits you know are within the fix that they could use to take down WinMx....
Threats dont wash well with me and i dare say they sure as hell dont with alot of other users whom use this site.
And lets face it KM if it hadnt been for you wanting away from WinMX and needing time for your own personal things (which i fully understand and can accpet) none of this would of ever happened.
But with a closed source fix surely even you would be happy with that ?
So how about the above mentioned eating a little humble pie and getting back with the group to push for a colsed source fix thats not made by KM that we can all use (even MXPie) ?

Now for MXPie and i address this manily to just one person and thats yourself Nobby.
You claim that the only reason you could not support the .ddl was because it was made by KM and that KM's past history shows him to be to great a risk to trust to have control of the WinMX network??
I fully understand and know that alot more mud slinging went on within all this but as i see it this was the base of your reason not to use the .dll ?
So i put it to you that with a new fix with blocking thats not made by KM then your reason for not using the .dll holds no water and this then leads me to say that with your faction happy that KM didnt make the .dll you have no vaild reason for needing to see the code within the fix and thus being happy that it is kept closed source so that we dont give the cartel the upper hand.
Or do we not care weather WinMx stays safe from the RIAA/MPAA or not ?

And now i come to yourself GhostShip...

I can undertsand your wish for a open source fix as it would put a end to MXPie (something you yourself Ice wanted to see not so long ago) and would also make WinMX a one fix programme again.
But i know (after a 2 to 3 hour chat with you on MSN) that you also know that theres risks also with a open source fix.
I also took on board that this fix is still being made and that NO ONE HAS EVEN SAID WEATHER ITS GOING TO BE OPEN SOURCE YET OR NOT !!!!!!!   please note this every single person reading this thread !!!!!!!!!   this to me is a point everone has missed!!!!!
But as i said on here before Ghost please please please do not leave the final choice as to weather a patch is open scr or not to just 6 people......
Even you know that WinMX will not last or run as we all wish with just a group of 6 people making all the choices for us all !!!!!!
As for you being called a lier or names on here by once very good friends i do hope you understand they to have a very very strong wish to see WinMX live on with a one single fix all can use  but a safe single fix to.
I also know you feel just as strong as they do about WinMX living on..

This is why theres so much banter going on at each other,but even banter turns it ugly head and tends to bite you on the ass sometimes.

I have had my say and even though you may not agree with me there my views and i will stand by them no matter how much slack or flack i have to endure or take from this post.

So with my essay complete i offer this soultion to the table.

MAKE A FIX THAT HAS NOT BEEN MADE BY KM AND KEEP IT CLOSED SOURCE AND MXPIE WILL USE THIS FIX BECAUSE ITS NOT BEEN MADE BY KM AND THEN SHOULDNT HAVE ANY ISSUES WITH IT BECAUSE THE ONLY REASON THEY WANTED TO SEE THE CODE BEFORE WAS BECAUSE IT WAS MADE BY KM.

Simple really but one last thing i would like to add is to ask you all to take a little step back here and look at the bigger picture.

If a new fix isnt made and KM takes his caches offline (as is totaly within his right) WinMX Dies !!!!!!!!!!
If a new fix is made and is made open source and has a fatel flaw WinMX Dies
If KM keeps his caches online and we stay with the fix we all use now we end up with split factions on WinMX (and lets face it we have all noticed the user base it falling) WinMx Dies!!!!!
If we release a closed scr fix not made by KM WinMx has a fighting chance (but only if MXPie are true to there word of using a fix not made by KM)

I hope i have not offened anyone within this post but i just want to see this stop and stop now!!!!
I can not sit back and watch once good friends fight like this and not say anything!!!!

[..Ñøßߥ..]

hes so lame he has to post under false identities, to ashamed to use his real nic....nobass was banned for a reason, and his continuing stupidity only reinforces that ban.

Oh dear Bug, got your facts wrong AGAIN, as you can see, i am posting from my account. lol

calling me a liar?

I have half a mind to send this non-existent information on this method of shutting down the network that you know better than the experts doesn't actually exist directly to macrovision along with an instruction manual -

Out come the true colours, more threats from the oh so powerful one, i wonder how long before the ultimatium, followed by "action" now where have we seen that before?

anyway, moving on....

Now for MXPie and i address this manily to just one person and thats yourself Nobby.
You claim that the only reason you could not support the .ddl was because it was made by KM and that KM's past history shows him to be to great a risk to trust to have control of the WinMX network??
I fully understand and know that alot more mud slinging went on within all this but as i see it this was the base of your reason not to use the .dll ?
So i put it to you that with a new fix with blocking thats not made by KM then your reason for not using the .dll holds no water and this then leads me to say that with your faction happy that KM didnt make the .dll you have no vaild reason for needing to see the code within the fix and thus being happy that it is kept closed source so that we dont give the cartel the upper hand.
Or do we not care weather WinMx stays safe from the RIAA/MPAA or not ?

There seems to be some confusion, here is the fact:

When Winmx was shut down, at the time Vladd44.com was the largest and most well known Winmx site, fact, Vladd did NOT want to  "be in charge" of any "team" but ofc users turned to him, his site and so he had to respond, his response was, he would back the best OPEN SOURCE connection solution. There was a good reason for that, he wouldnt want to be responsible for spreading a patch that could be used as an attack tool, or similar. The only patch that was open source, was the hosts patch, although it was clear more funtionality could be gained from a .dll solution, KM was intent on keeping it closed source.

So fact one, vladd publically stated he would back the best OS solution, as KMs was closed, this meant he could not back it.

Fact two, KM had already earned himself a reputation within the community, ofc there was the release of nushi poison on his site, and the author and distribution of at least one other attack tool. In addition, KM had also devoted some time to attacking Vladd44 site (omg flashback), something KM has admitted in the past. With these simple facts, and the fact Vladd wished to only use V44 to support an OS patch in mind, its hardly a surprise KMs patch wasnt backed by vladd.

Those are the reasons KMs patch was not backed by vladd, and instead he had no choice but to support the host file mod. The second set of facts simply added wieght to the argument not to back kms patch. If a new patch was created that did not meet the OS requirement, i doubt vladd would back it, BUT (and this is important) this is NOT in anyway a demand from pie, this is simply a response i gave to Ghost when he asked me the question. Neither myself nor Pie at anytime have approached Ghost with any demands regarding this new patch, i have simply provided a response to HIS inquiry.


Moving on:

Also you state that there will be no possible exploits available in the source code. Where KM’s patch has a few flaws there. Don’t you find it odd that Nobby states that the patch will be of the same sort?


Nobbys quote:

2. Vladd, from the very word go, said he would support the best "open source" patch, unfortunately KM chose to hide what was in his patch, and WmW supported this, odd now that they can create the same sort of patch open source. This does add weight to the theory KM had some hidden goodies in his.

Actually, i was simply refering to the fact that KM had ALWAYS insisted the .dll MUST be closed source, now it would seem there was actually a simple and safe method to release an OS .dll all along.

That leaves me with a few questions.  If the patches are of the same sort, how could this new patch not be exploitable? (other than being closed source and still not always 100% foolproof)  Are they not of the same sort? Please elaborate.

The are both .dll, but use different methods, KM's would be unsafe in the wrong hands (along with some other reasons i suspect) whereas the new one would not as it does not use the same code.

I would also add again, the Cartel have the budget to hire the best coders and reverse engineers in the world, you really think they dont know how WInmx work? For all you guys know, the Riaa may have cut a deal with  Kevin, they may have the source, we simply dont know.

300 peer caches?  Now that’s funny. But seriously 300 peer caches?  Is that needed?  Sounds bloated to me.

Nobbys quote:

Rather than just Sabre and KM running caches, the new community patch will be able to support a network of up to 300 independantly run community caches, this will be a major leap away from the bad situation of Winmx being held to ransom by 2 power crazed users. Both Sabre and KM have a track record of using their power as a bargining chip, with each on more than 1 occasion shutting down caches when they havent got their own way, a situation we can well do without.

As you can see, i simply said it "Will be able to", i'm sure 300 arent required, but i would rather not have reliance on a few users, as has already been proved serveral times over by KM and Sabre, thats not wise.

I hope i addressed points aimed at me, sorry if i missed any.


Now perhaps we can get back on topic?

Open source or closed source?

KM has his own agenda, and always has, Ice swaps sides so often i cant work out what he is backing, nor do i care. Bearded and a few others seem to be flying off the handle at something that isnt even written yet, and a few more seem to think myself or Pie are in some way dictating and demanding things from Ghost, when nothing could be further from the truth.

Time for a few folks to take a long deep breath and calm down a little.

[Me Here]

Ice continues to make threats.. in his name alone.. unbannable hes threating as far as Im concerned and for the record his posts will now be moved to the moderators section.  Since I may not be able to prevent his wishes to continue to be abusive via proxies and his points are lost in that is his own fault at this point all posts willl be moved.
Please dont reply to His posts,  lets keep this a discussion something that users might take something from, and THANK YOU to all of you that have respected that wish for me!

Also Bearded you will notice that I have moved your post back to this thread in its rightful place and I hope that meets with your approval, I couldnt contact you to ask about that but took that upon myself.

I can fully understand Nooks desire and thinking in locking this, because as Ive said and Mac points out here this is a proposed way forward.. not set in stone.  The patch isnt even at completion yet and really you all know Ghost better than to think hes going forward with something that the majority of posters on this site dont want.  That doesnt mean we cant have a discussion about it for those users that are not sure how they feel or want information.  I feel his interest was to not allow further damage to friendships over this subject, not to hide anything or keep users quiet so lets just move on.  So Im glad to see it unlocked and welcome any comments that are not made in anger and are not abusive to your fellow MXers.

[Bearded Blunder]

Nobby, one simple question, how do you *know* your method is so different in every way?

how *can* you know when you've said yourself you havn't seen KM's code?

engineers faced with the same problems, at the same time, as i said before, tend to find similar solutions, they have the same materials to work with & must work within the constraints of logic & the rules of whatever field they operate in, of neccessity this leads to similar solutions.  this is simple logic.

Mac:
please quote where i've stated Pie should be closed or removed from the network, you'll find plenty of places where i've called for them to apply blocking, you'll even find one where i voted for some (at that point yet to be defined) action to be taken regarding what most agree was a scam (call for donations), but you won't find me calling for them to close, trawl the room logs you'll even find many times when i argued against splitting the network to cut pie out....

[TheMacDaddy]

Bearded Blunder please note the open and close brackets on my post that comment was more so aimed at ice but i put you and ice and KM within the same group for the reason you are the 3 most out spoken against a open source fix (within this thread) and i was hoping the closed source fix on the grounds of what ice has worked for (the removal of pie fix from the network) was a vaild enough reason.
I dont claim you have ever asked for pie to be blocked as i myself know you havent asked for that and that your main reason for wanting closed scr is to not give the cartel a free ride over us.

I am sorry if it came across wrong but as i am sure you can tell it was a long post which came from the heart and nothing else.

[Bearded Blunder]

ok, well that's what comes from me reading posts when i've just stumbled out of bed...

which leaves my question about the workings, which KM says are dangerous to release & i belive that, I've known him slant the truth so it reads more favourably to his viewpoint (sorry km) however on a strict reading i've never known him post UNtruths..

so here's what i see:
to connect a patch must intercept DNS lookups made by winmx & change them to DNS requests with valid caches the other end
a dns lookup is a dns lookup however you generate it...

*if* danger lies in doing this, i can't see a way round it.. no matter what you still have to intercept & modify it...
so new patch can't be so radically different here... it's still a dns request.

to block you must load a list from somewhere, currently the caches, but could be some other source, however, it's plain text (unless you encrypt it), & strikes me as no less secure than loading any web page, it's secure enough by any means (unless you subvert those dns lookups)

having loaded the list, you must prevent TCP connections from the listed ip addresses, having done so revaling the *method* used to prevent them *may* reveal a way to bypass it...

which leaves filtering, to filter you must intercept search results & drop ones which are fake, so far as i know the reliable way to do so is compare their origin to the blocklist, i understand this is how KM's patch does it, & then drop results that match..

reveal the exact criteria used & method involved *may* result in macrovision modifying the fakes to bypass it, undesirable at best.. they may also spot some exploit that causes the inspection to crash winmx when encountered (malformed search results etc.) which would kill winmx dead on the spot...

can anyone know in advance their code has no such holes? well i can't see the future..

& i don't actually know details of the hole that's in KM's code, i may very well not have covered it above, in which case there may or may not be an additional danger in any code duplicating it's basic function..

fact is i see enough above to worry me, without that unidentified hole, & concerns me greatly others aren't thinking along the same lines.

& for the record, the only reasons pie's auto-updater worries me is it's a big open door to your system which is exploitable if those running it became corrupt.... & it lacks fake filtering which is not good for the user's experience using winmx, they'll tend to leave on being unable to find real files...

nor is *it* even strictly open source, you have to jump through hoops to get the src for it, which makes even checking if the code has filters built in to prevent undesirable redirects (non-winmx related ones for example) being fed into hosts difficult at best, impossible if you don't wish to retain your privacy.

[..Ñøßߥ..]

Nobby, one simple question, how do you *know* your method is so different in every way?

It is not "my" method, i am simply reporting the facts of the matter. As i have said repeatadly, you really should voice your objections, and review the situation when there is actually a patch to discuss, right now, there is just some unfinished and untested code. To claim an unfinished patch is bad for the network, is no better than claiming how great it is, until its ready, there isnt too much more to say.

I suggest from here on here users of this forum and other interested parties should consider 2 things:

1. How best to get the right resources together to ensure the patch it finished to the highest possible standards (OS or not, a replacement for KMs patch is needed) and the sooner the better, at least for .dll users.

2. Figure out the best way to assess any possible threat by its OS release.

It makes no sense to fight over something that isnt even finished.

[Bearded Blunder]

No you were not reporting facts, you were repeating heresay (someone told you it was/would be safe)

point 1 i can broadly agree with Nobby

point 2 there is no necessity for (since it's effectively impossible in any case, you *might* see a danger, you can never be quite certain you havn't *missed* one) & the entire threat or otherwise is obviated by the mind-numbingly simple precaution of simply not releasing the code.....  The compiled code, after all, will run in either case

[..Ñøßߥ..]

No you were not reporting facts, you were repeating heresay (someone told you it was/would be safe)

I was simply reporting the fact the coding team are using a UDP based method that they consider to be safe.

point 1 i can broadly agree with Nobby

good.

point 2 there is no necessity for (since it's effectively impossible in any case, you *might* see a danger, you can never be quite certain you havn't *missed* one) & the entire threat or otherwise is obviated by the mind-numbingly simple precaution of simply not releasing the code.....  The compiled code, after all, will run in either case

Whilst i fully understand your point and concern, BUT with all due respect here, IF the team do decide to release it OS, would it not be wise for folks that are anti OS, to at least work on covering as many of the possible concerns as you can?

It seems you have several options:

- Post, bitch, rant and general enflame the situation further (unlikey to acheive your goal)

- Say nothing much more and simply hope the patch works out ok

- Stand by your concerns but recognise the team may well go ahead with OS anyway, so work with them to ensure you can cover as many bases as possible so as when it releases the dangers are as limited as possible (Yes i understand its not possible to be 100%, but 80 or 90% is better than do nothing right?)

BTW for those that are likely to attack me again I HAVE NO SAY IN WHETHER THE PATCH IS OS OR NOT, all i have is an opinion like most of you.

[Bearded Blunder]

* Bearded Blunder *waits for someone to address his points regarding the patch workings made prior to this exchange*

[]-[êll.Ôñ.ËÀR'][']-[.]

nudges ghost to see how them answers are coming along to my post August 17, 2007, 12:43:53 pm   

[..Ñøßߥ..]

if there are new coders from outside the existing groups ones then please enlighten us as to who and where they have come from as i am sure we would also welcome this news as this would be real progress ( & if this be the case there reasoning for wanting it open source would be appreciated & if they have any fears of this becoming so)
as i see it atm its just existing coders updating/modyfying/devoloping  an existing patch to cover up previous lies to allow them to become part of one team and not loose face over it & wanting to gamble away the future of winmx nothing more

Well, i aint Ghost, but your questions have already been answered in this thread, but here goes again:

You see it wrong, it is not a case of "updating/modyfying/devoloping an existing patch", the patch currently being produced is new, using different methods than previously used. As far as im aware, as i already said in this thread, there are both WmW and Pie supporters working on this project.

[Bearded Blunder]

Hell i can't really answer it in ghost's abscence either ..

but i *suspect* the team consists of hollow + anyone he can ask for pointers on how to get his dll working...