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WinMX World :: Forum  |  Discussion  |  Think Tank  |  A Thought - Super Primary Takeover?
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Author Topic: A Thought - Super Primary Takeover?  (Read 2511 times)

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Offline WinMX-Thinker

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A Thought - Super Primary Takeover?
« on: November 02, 2008, 10:56:52 pm »
Do you all remember the old days when WinMX was freshly closed and there was WinMX Group and MXPIE. MXPie was using some of KM's cache servers on their lists and when KM switched over to a few new servers he set up a system so the cache servers mxpie was using would give one primary ip address and he used it as a super primary. And when anyone searched it sent a results saying to download winmxgroup.com patch. LOL

But something not funny is it could happen now.  Say someone got ahold of the primary protocol and made a program that connected to many primary's and then always reported free secondaries avaliable? What if it got 100's and 100's and functioned fine but one day they decided to mess with the network.  Wouldn't this disrupt the network? And it's possible.

- Just a thought. :S

Offline GhostShip

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Re: A Thought - Super Primary Takeover?
« Reply #1 on: November 03, 2008, 01:29:35 am »
That emergency activity was done simply by the redirection of folks using the winmxgroup peer cache to a server that sent out a reply to either the search or a channel list request and only when it was clear the network was haemorraging users due to an old host file not having enough active IP's in it.

I have a nice copy of the primary protocol sitting in front of me and so do some of the developers who are skilled enough to utilise it, looking at how the nodes are passed around the network your theory of a superprimary sounds simple enough but falls foul of one or two little known winmx protection mechanisms such as the multiple IP blocking system that ensures the network cannot be flooded by a single node address and also the level of user numbers you suggest would be outside the spec of the protocol and detected as such, many illegal values are detected in the later mx builds to protect against such patently fake open slot levels, I,m sure with some experimentation you will find the upper limit.  ;)


Offline Forested665

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Re: A Thought - Super Primary Takeover?
« Reply #2 on: February 26, 2009, 08:20:43 pm »
i know i mentioned like a dll or plugin to you ghost for distributing to developers so they could have primary clients without knowing the code. but wouldnt it also be possible to make this same client or whatever a small encrypted exe like winmx is now and then give that run parralel to any secondary app. just let it run in the background and let the application laucnher handle multiple copies of it.
BSD -  The Daemons Are No Longer Just Inside My Head.

Offline GhostShip

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Re: A Thought - Super Primary Takeover?
« Reply #3 on: February 27, 2009, 12:42:21 am »
I,m sure many things are possible but the road I have asked folks to take is firstly to demonstrate they are capable programmers by developing a secondary only client and then we as a community can ensure this bit is fully bug free and built like a brick, then using the knowledge and experience gained in that half of the project we can add on the UDP socket , cache connection code and primary to primary features and more importantly work on creating a streamilined array that is needed to deal with handling secondary traffic as well as its own normal TCP & UDP traffic, at this stage there is no room for errors and you can expect the entire network to want to kick your butt if you mess up  :ugly:

Now knowing all this has to be tested thoroughly and with experience gained prior to building a primary dll, does it make sense to create something thats running before we can jump and who would take the can when disaster strikes as in a bug or exploit found ?

I dont know anyone wishing to rush into this and I was looking at getting support for a new client built on the back of a successful secondary client build where the bugs can be ironed out and lessons learned from the ground up as it where before hitting the primary motorway  and  I hope I have stated before  that there are issues we need to as a community address within the primary protocol and these are best discussed behind closed doors in safety amongst the programmers who are a respected bunch and all honour the code of silence on this important matter, we have tried to include others from the other groups in the knowledge sharing and been successful in a few cases but you can understand this is something done only after we are satisfied  that they will act responsibly and for the good of winmx and not themselves, in all cases so far this has remained the case.
I make this public as I,m sure many would speak aloud to say information is hoarded here when the reverse is actually the case, responsible folks swap information and we all benefit accordingly.

Theres a tradition on WinMX that many of the newer users may not know of and its this: it may take time and it may be delayed but it will arrive and work well, this has been the case since frontcode operated the network and a tradition we are forced to emulate albeit in a happy way  :-D

Offline Forested665

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Re: A Thought - Super Primary Takeover?
« Reply #4 on: February 27, 2009, 06:49:57 pm »
A) you type WAY to dam much.
B) im only suggesting a different approach. if you were to make a small program that does nothing other then handle the connections and duties of a primary it could run along side whatever program you wanted or just in the background on a set of dedicated servers if you wanted to ensure the network stay up without having "winmx" on your server and paying 30 bux to the provider as is often the case. but still the point of security does come in and i see the need. obviously the encryption inside winmx's exe isnt enough or you wouldnt have this information to safeguard and "hoard" to those you see fit and responsible. if you want to know why people consider wmw info hoarders all you have to do is merely look at how you determine whether a person has the right to see the primary info. im not saying share it with everyone and im not telling you to share it with anyone im merely suggested you get one of your chosen ones to write a small program that performs the primary functions. even if you dont release the program it would still show that they are capable of writing a primary client.
C) and yes i realize i just typed an eye full after saying you typed to much but a big post full of whats looks to be mostly political garbage deserves an equally large post full of relevant info.
BSD -  The Daemons Are No Longer Just Inside My Head.

Offline GhostShip

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Re: A Thought - Super Primary Takeover?
« Reply #5 on: February 28, 2009, 01:48:34 am »
So lets be clear here, you consider when folks like myself take a serious view and act responsibly towards WinMX users its politics ?

Your just too funny Bacon, remind me why you bothered to ask if you didnt want to be treated to a genuinely heart felt and honest answer, I can see your far too radicalised for any further sort of plain response from me, I do take the safety and security of the folks seriously and making this clear always takes more than a few words to convey.

"Nothing shall come to those who give nothing".

Offline Forested665

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Re: A Thought - Super Primary Takeover?
« Reply #6 on: February 28, 2009, 04:20:17 am »
what i see political is the fact you even brought up how the primary network information is shared and your regulations on it in this topic in the first place.
i dont have a bit of problem with these policies but i can see why other people do.
and the purpose in my reply was again to say that alot more can be accomplished if the primary network was handled by some program that runs in the background. a simple scripted installer can place the exe in a folder slong side another program for distrobution.
BSD -  The Daemons Are No Longer Just Inside My Head.

Offline GhostShip

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Re: A Thought - Super Primary Takeover?
« Reply #7 on: February 28, 2009, 09:32:49 am »
I don't think you understand how offensive your words are becoming to me Bacon,  firstly because unlike any other group on WinMX we share information of a technical nature and do research that is also shared, I really don't see anyone with any idea of how the WPN works complaining about us vetting folks prior to aiding them, most are happy they are trusted and match that by creating programs or applications we all enjoy using, sure some kiddie hackers wont like this policy but then such a policy would not be needed if such people did not exist.

I don't suppose you dare to name any of these folks who have complained to you that I wouldn't put the WPN in danger, I wont hold my breath on awaiting the names but I would ask you to seek out a better set of acquaintances if your looking to stay around the community as folks like those are not found here in any quantity and are given no respect for whining instead of helping others.

Re: A Thought - Super Primary Takeover?
« Reply #8 on: February 28, 2009, 03:01:56 pm »
As you implied Bacon, there are many approaches we could take and this is the one that has been chosen.

I don't know enough about programming to know if have a small encrypted app to handle the primary connections would be of great benefit to someone wanting to create a primary client app. I'm sure however that the group involved will be happy to look into that in due time.

I'm sure you can appreciate Bacon that with the plethora of great ideas coming from users such as yourself that the list of things this group has to work on is quite considerable and that the idea of a small encrypted primary app will be given due consideration but perhaps not until a few other items have been completed.

I feel that labeling Ghosts explaination as political is a little harsh. Rather just give you a "we'll look into it" response Ghost has taken the time to explain why perhaps the idea won't be considered quite as promptly as you'd like. I'm not sure which kind of response you'd prefer but I know Ghost feels all users are part of the network and as such deserve more than the shortest reply possible. I for one don't want to see this attitude change and I'm sure in reflection neither do you.

I've seen a bunch of your suggestions from asorted places in the forum and it's these suggestions and passionate users that will ensure the longevity of winmx, please just keep in mind that there is a limited resource to work on some of these things and they may take time to get to.

Offline Forested665

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Re: A Thought - Super Primary Takeover?
« Reply #9 on: February 28, 2009, 05:51:53 pm »
i have no intention of letting you start a witch hunt.
"I make this public as I,m sure many would speak aloud to say information is hoarded here when the reverse is actually the case, responsible folks swap information and we all benefit accordingly." this is where you mentioned the hoarding ect ect. again the reason i considered over half that post political is because the procedure for how you determine who is worthy of the primary information really doesnt have much to do with KM's search result stuntand nor does my primary app idea wich is why its in another thread.
BSD -  The Daemons Are No Longer Just Inside My Head.

Offline Me Here

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Re: A Thought - Super Primary Takeover?
« Reply #10 on: February 28, 2009, 06:08:03 pm »
Quote
i have no intention of letting you start a witch hunt.
Nor do I you.
You are bordering on rude Bacon, actually as far as I can see you far surpassed it. 

The reason the information is withheld from public users is quite simple.  One it could be used to damage the network, not only by users but also by professionals who disrupt p2p apps for a living.
And two because its his own research, he has worked on it for years like anyone that has worked on an application or a program its his perogative to give that information to whom ever he sees fit in what ever manner (should he decide to do so) he sees fit.

As he has tried to point out to you a few times he does in fact share this information with those he feels it can actually benefit, and as per reason one above, trust.

Consider yourself warned Bacon if you continue to insult and bait here this thread will be locked and you will be banned.  You've got your answer about your suggestion, its not up for debate.

Offline White Stripes

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Re: A Thought - Super Primary Takeover?
« Reply #11 on: February 28, 2009, 06:24:03 pm »
bacon... seriously... if you got MHs attention you're on the verge of being fried... you need to back down... trust me...


as an offtopic aside: very long time no see MH...
* Silver Stripes hugs

Offline Forested665

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Re: A Thought - Super Primary Takeover?
« Reply #12 on: February 28, 2009, 07:55:33 pm »
as im going to point out for the last time. you are taking this wrong i am not questioning how you handle this or what you do with it and if you reread my post i support his methods of doing so.
BSD -  The Daemons Are No Longer Just Inside My Head.

Offline Me Here

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Re: A Thought - Super Primary Takeover?
« Reply #13 on: February 28, 2009, 11:21:30 pm »
Silver Stripes:  xxx   8)

Bacon:  'nuff said

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