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WinMX World :: Forum  |  Discussion  |  WinMx World News  |  Apple boss Steve Jobs explains ban on Flash
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Author Topic: Apple boss Steve Jobs explains ban on Flash  (Read 2327 times)

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Offline GhostShip

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Re: Apple boss Steve Jobs explains ban on Flash
« Reply #20 on: May 04, 2010, 04:44:20 pm »
"Investigating claims" does not mean "has uncovered abuse" thus as you make clear the sentence admits that apple where informed there was abuse (the key words " investigating claims"), not as you claimed above "discovered" it.
And the real joke is that even when Apple find abuse they still use the same companies to produce further product, preferring to simply tell the companies off for being caught.

Many here would simply ask you Pri just why are you complaining about the topic mutating when you yourself are readily replying to what I have posted and thus you too have indulged in the off topic activity.
I have responded to any of the repeated points you have made that I,m happy to and its no use being annoyed because I,m not commenting on all of them, it may well be because I,m not claiming to be an expert on flash or html5 and thus feel underpowered to deliver any comment of worth, had you considered this at all ?

Rest assured I don't use a computer that was produced by Chinese sweatshop labour, it was built by myself, meaning the parts where fitted together by me and mostly came from Taiwan and Japan or so the boxes have led me to believe.

Offline Pri

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Re: Apple boss Steve Jobs explains ban on Flash
« Reply #21 on: May 04, 2010, 07:48:41 pm »
Many here would simply ask you Pri just why are you complaining about the topic mutating when you yourself are readily replying to what I have posted and thus you too have indulged in the off topic activity.

I'd hope that you would hold yourself to a higher regard than you would me, with you being a site supervisor and me being a user. There is such a thing as leading by example.

And if you don't feel you have the knowledge to discuss the merits of Flash vs HTML5 then why are you posting about them in the first place. You are bringing up things like Apple want to make money and so they are getting Flash out of the picture. But this is not true to anyone who understands what HTML5 represents (Which is what Apple are pushing). If anything HTML5 is a bigger concern to profit margins than Flash has ever been because it has full hardware support and direct GPU access. And if you think Apple are only backing HTML5 because they are a part of the h.264 consortium that would be incorrect also because Flash actually uses H.264 for all its video and H.264 licensing is free anyway. Basically Apple won't make any more or less money from displacing flash with HTML5.

At the moment Flash is mainly used for 3 things. Site building, Web based games and Internet video (Streaming and Static). HTML5 does all 3 of these things better for the following reasons.

1. Site building: HTML5 will enable much richer animation in sites without sacrificing CPU performance, with each new browser version HTML5 performance for website building can increase as the browser makers have full control over their own implementation of HTML5.

2. Gaming, HTML5 includes what is known as WebGL. WebGL is basically OpenGL ES, similar to what the PS3, Nintendo Wii and other consoles use to deliver eye-popping 3D graphics. WebGL is fully GPU accelerated just like a native 3D game. Flash is not used for 3D Games due to it not having a standard 3D library.

3. Video. HTML5 supports a new <Video> Tag which enables video playback for whatever video codec the system or browser supports. There are a few issues here as Mozilla are only going to support Theora, Microsoft & Apple are only supporting h.264 and Google are supporting both. This will however get worked out eventually. H.264 is fully GPU accelerated but even when it isnt (CPU software rendering only) it can still deliver compelling video at a reasonable bitrate (same quality as Flash) with lower processor usage.

HTML5 is fully supported by the iPhone OS that runs on the iPhone, iPod and iPad. You can use HTML5 to make applications (even cross-platform ones) and you can use HTML5 to deliver web-apps that are accessible through the Safari browser.

There is no corperate reason as to why anyone would want to get rid of Flash except due to its performance hungry nature, security issues and slow update cycle. Apple will be delivering 1500 API's in the new 4.0 Software Update for iPhone OS.

Many of these API's will be accessible through Javascript in the browser as part of Apples HTML5 outlay. Which means that Developers can make use of them on day 1 of release. However if your using Adobes Flash platform it could be 6 months to a year before you are able to make use of these new API's in your Flash applications because you need Adobes execution environment (The Flash client) to be updated to support all these new functions.

Imagine your Google for example and you want to make a web based VoIP application that is accessible through the Safari browser. With current web technology such as Javascript and HTML5 you can do that, you can even integrate it with the phones built in phonebook by the secure API's that are exposed by the phone. (The phonebook API is like a wrapper the web service is never actually handed your phonebook, only you on the client side see your phone book display). In flash this is simply not possible as Flash cannot utilize that API. At-least not until Adobe update the Flash Client which could be ... well who knows?

As we know Open Source maters. Adobes development platform is lackluster at best. Open Standards like HTML5 that are being built by Google, Mozilla and other companies at the forefront of web development are the way to go. There is no need at all to rely on 1 company that has been shown again and again to stop innovating when they see no threats. Before HTML5 started becoming a serious contender Adobe did nothing with Flash.

Also I just wanted to say that there is no doubt in my mind that if Adobe turn Flash around and actually make it competitive in performance, security and release cycle that we will see it on the iPhone. You know Apple actually ship Flash by default with their computers? It's pre-installed with Snow Leopard. No one else does that, not any Linux distributions I know and certainly not Microsoft to my knowledge.

Offline GhostShip

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Re: Apple boss Steve Jobs explains ban on Flash
« Reply #22 on: May 04, 2010, 08:19:57 pm »
It seems I,m not the only one concerned with Apples monopoly practices

http://www.pcworld.com/article/195527/apple_to_dodge_antitrust_bullet_report_says.html

Quote
Apple's new mobile advertising platform for iPhone and iPad applications, iAd, is reportedly under scrutiny after recent changes to Apple's developer agreement,according to The Wall Street Journal. The revisions forbid Apple developers from sharing data collected from users (iPhone and iPad owners) with third parties.

This policy, some argue, could make it impossible for third-party advertisers to target advertising to consumers, thereby giving Apple's iAd program a potential competitive advantage. For example, an iPhone game developer could use a third-party advertising platform (other than iAds) to subsidize a game with ads. But without access to end-user data from Apple about who that game user is an advertiser stands to make significantly less ad revenue because it can't tailor ads specifically for that individual's geographic location, for example.

Perhaps the biggest focus of a potential antitrust investigation into Apple's practices would focus on the company's decision to reject applications for the iTunes App Store that are developed with cross-platform development software. This means that developers working on porting their apps to multiple mobile platforms such as Android, Blackberry, iPhone OS and Windows Phone 7 must create one version of the app using cross-platform tools, and then create iPhone apps in the iPhone OS' native computer language, Objective-C. This could be seen as anti-competitive behavior if smaller developers are choosing to write iPhone apps over developing for other platforms, because of burdensome upfront expenses such as the time and labor needed to create two versions of the same application.

Luckily we have Pri here to explain all this Monopoly/Not-Monopoly Talk.

Btw Pri

Quote
Apple will be delivering 1500 API's in the new 4.0 Software Update for iPhone OS.

You mean in their monopoly Iphone O/s  dont you, I wouldnt want folks to get confused.


Quote
The U.S. Department of Justice and the Federal Trade Commission may launch an antitrust investigation into Apple's mobile business practices within days.

Terrible eh Pri  ;)

Offline Pri

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Re: Apple boss Steve Jobs explains ban on Flash
« Reply #23 on: May 04, 2010, 08:21:51 pm »
Yes it is their own OS on their own hardware. But I don't know how you can call the iPhone OS a monopoly it only has like 2% of the world handset market. I believe Blackberry is the leader OS wise and Android is quickly going to eclipse the iPhone OS soon.

The only thing Apple has a Monopoly over is quality. :D

Offline GhostShip

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Re: Apple boss Steve Jobs explains ban on Flash
« Reply #24 on: May 04, 2010, 08:28:25 pm »
I meant in terms of the code base being a monopoly its not open src that for sure and with all these rules and regulations developers have to jump before being "allowed " to actually develope for the iphone platform its what I  see as  monopoly, when you place undue hurdles to fair competition then its time for the regulators to step in, and they will.

Quality ? We where just discussing where their workforce is based I,m surprised at you sometimes  :S

Offline Pri

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Re: Apple boss Steve Jobs explains ban on Flash
« Reply #25 on: May 04, 2010, 08:45:42 pm »
The quality thing was just a joke. And tbh you can't develop with Flash without using Adobes tools. So should we get a case against them?

HTML5 is open and anyone can develop with it with just Notepad. Anyone can download xcode and start coding for OS X or the iPhone.

The only thing Apple wants to stop is when your using an abstraction layer between the OS and the Software as that definitely diminishes performance and quality. Do you like Flash ghost? I mean I personally hate it, and I've always hated it long before Apple ever released the iPhone I've always hated Flash.

I hate websites made in flash, I hate flash video. I just really dislike it. I hate ads made with flash as-well. I've spent a lot of time and effort just to block flash in every browser in my home and still be able to enjoy Youtube and BBC iPlayer which require Flash to work. To see Apple and Microsoft actually speak out against Flash was refreshing that others at the very top of tech had the same views as me which is that Flash is a lousy product and we need something better.

Offline GhostShip

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Re: Apple boss Steve Jobs explains ban on Flash
« Reply #26 on: May 04, 2010, 10:40:41 pm »
I agree flash is not so helpful all the time especially when you visit places like youtube but with little in the way of alternatives in the current market its something we all have to put up with.

I,m no Adobe lover either Pri but wheres the fun in saying that eh..lol

If you remember the size of the original acrobat reader and see what it is now you would likely get a shock I certainly do and its not as though its doing anything more for the majority of its users.

Offline Savage Blades

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Re: Apple boss Steve Jobs explains ban on Flash
« Reply #27 on: May 05, 2010, 01:22:44 am »
Quote
child labour in poor countries
What do you think this means, dragging children out of their homes or schools, and sending them to work ??
In a poor country, a job is a job..
In a rich country "Big business" would rather employ "juniors" at junior rates, rather than adults..
And the difference is ??
It is so easy for one country to paint another as "bad" based on what the media or what-ever have to say about it..
Keep an open mind, go visit one of these places personally yourself, then make your own opinion based on your own experience..
Otherwise you are as bad as an .info patch user, you simply don't know any better...( blind faith in what you are told by others )
Parents ( and family ) where I live, show an amazing regard for family values, if they thought their kids were being exploited, they would stop it..

I wish there was alternative to viewing Flash content in browsers, and even better, page makers would stop using it...
Long time flawed product, that we know it is..
My opinions, are mine !
They may, or may not reflect the views and opinions of other WinMX World Forum members !!
DJ Hire

Offline GhostShip

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Re: Apple boss Steve Jobs explains ban on Flash
« Reply #28 on: May 05, 2010, 01:56:43 am »
I cant say what you think is bad or good to be honest Blades, most certainly I will stand firm against the systematic abuse of children by forcing them to work long hours for little remuneration often in dormitories just like a prison, if your saying this does not go on I have no faith in what your saying as I for one know it does, if your saying am I picking on one country in particular on this issue well rest assured I,m not, in this case its been China but in many cases its India or Malaysia where these sweatshops episodes are frequent. I make it clear here in case it wasn't already that I,m discussing children, they are not factory hens but human beings and pushing them to work at a young age is beyond my contempt, for sure its easy for me to talk like this when I haven't been forced to work like a machine as soon as I had some manual dexterity.

I don't say other folks should be raised as I have in my society, educated, trained and working fruitfully at a decent level  but it demonstrates a level of commitment to their child if parents tried to aspire to a later level of working age that we in the west take for granted, I fully understand that this may not always be possible but the cost of not allowing more time for education is paid across a lifetime of poor pay and short term prospects, why would I want this for anyone else if its not good enough for any child of mine ?

I,m not sure what your angry about to be honest, I,m using my own experience as an intelligent consumer to avoid buying products that I feel are more gimmicks than life changing tools and spending my time here discussing matters that I feel are more important, I,m practicing interaction and from that springs knowledge.

Offline White Stripes

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Re: Apple boss Steve Jobs explains ban on Flash
« Reply #29 on: May 05, 2010, 03:45:24 am »
in this flash vs. iphone war id just like to be able to laugh at the animations of homestarrunner.com and play chess without 'buying' an app for it flashchess3.com .... btw... youtube drains a fully charged iphone in about an hour... and thats just playing the videos directly....

fun little tinkertoy for viral videos on youtube but im glad i didnt buy one.... ill leave that to those who let me play with the thing when im away from a wifi access point ;) ... i'll hold on to my $$ for a droid...

oh.. and webkit came from khtml.... apple didnt make it... it was open to begin with so they followed suit... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/WebKit ... if this was already mentioned good (TL;DR drama)... but dont think that apple 'invented' webkit...

flash sucks... but its nice to have as an option instead of not having that option at all....

Offline Savage Blades

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Re: Apple boss Steve Jobs explains ban on Flash
« Reply #30 on: May 05, 2010, 07:36:40 am »
Angry, no..
Wanting to share my insight, in an honest, informed and truthful light, having lived in an Asian country for 3 years now, and having family which are Asian, a mother-inlaw as a retired judge, a father-inlaw retired from a high standing Gov, position, we talk.....
They ask me about western life, and vice versa...

Don't forget this country doesn't have pensions, while some companies do still pay workers beyond retirement, it is the legal obligation for ''children'' to care for their, aging parents.
Also trust this, parents are universal, they love their kids, and want what's best for them. (maybe even more so here, than western countries)

Child labour, depends on definition, these are not children, they are young adults between 15-25 years of age, being labelled "children" by journalists.
( journalists that get paid for making sensational headlines & articles that sell, plain and simple. )
When one of these ''children'' reaches age 20, they have already been working for the company for 5 years, and more often than not, by this age they have a higher position within the company based on their knowledge and experience, considered a valued worker.. and... have a future....
So, at this point in their life, they are already employed and getting better than average money than other 20 year olds that have stuck out their education, and just entered the workforce, this isn't that different to an apprenticeship is it ?

The factory is like a city, providing many essential needs for daily living, this should be factored as ''income'' too right ? The money they get can not be converted, and compared, you must look at what the money buys here...
Now I understand while someone from a western country, may view the living conditions as sub-standard, by their standard, these workers need these jobs, and are happy to be there.

It is a completely different culture, lifestyle, no chance of finding a 'qualified', electrician, carpenter, plumber etc etc etc, so education, currently, plays a different role here.
Oh and another universal thing, many qualified university ''leavers'' often do not end up working in the Fields they are qualified for... I saw this back home, too.
I guess slowly it may get there, as there are 'qualified' doctors and dentists... ummm well, they are supposed to be !! Is likely some are not, too.

I am sure that in your home town, there are some big name western companies which offer youth, little future prospects, expect the same performance as an adult, but because their ''workers'' are young, pay low money, and this is ok...
My opinions, are mine !
They may, or may not reflect the views and opinions of other WinMX World Forum members !!
DJ Hire

Offline GhostShip

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Re: Apple boss Steve Jobs explains ban on Flash
« Reply #31 on: May 05, 2010, 08:08:14 am »
My apologies if I have inadvertantly caused you any offence Blades, I truly do understand the realities of life and why its not always possible to have an ideal universal culture where everyone lives a life of easy living. I hope you understand that I,m merely trying to higlight the practice of some western companies outsourcing to places for the cheapest cost regardless of worker conditions, 15 doesnt seem so bad to me but we all know in a lot of cases that for many children work begins at a lot lower age and education is something they only dream about.

I thank you for your heartfelt and honest insight and I hope others here take notice of the fact that we live in a diverse world of many competing needs and friendship is something to be cherished. Once again my apologies Blades.

Offline Pri

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Re: Apple boss Steve Jobs explains ban on Flash
« Reply #32 on: May 05, 2010, 06:32:17 pm »
in this flash vs. iphone war id just like to be able to laugh at the animations of homestarrunner.com and play chess without 'buying' an app for it flashchess3.com .... btw... youtube drains a fully charged iphone in about an hour... and thats just playing the videos directly....

fun little tinkertoy for viral videos on youtube but im glad i didnt buy one.... ill leave that to those who let me play with the thing when im away from a wifi access point ;) ... i'll hold on to my $$ for a droid...

oh.. and webkit came from khtml.... apple didnt make it... it was open to begin with so they followed suit... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/WebKit ... if this was already mentioned good (TL;DR drama)... but dont think that apple 'invented' webkit...

flash sucks... but its nice to have as an option instead of not having that option at all....

I never said that Apple invented Webkit. What I said was, Apple maintain Webkit and it is fully open and available from them. They didn't have to take KHTML (which btw before Apple came along was in its infancy, I've spoken to Mozilla devs who originally considered KHTML over Gecko but decided it wasn't mature enough at that time) Apple however decided they could take KHTML further and so forked it in to Webkit. Apple did a lot for that project by namely paying developers money to work on it during the week days instead of just weekend programmers that the project had before.

Apple could have gone a completely different direction (like Microsoft) and made their own rendering engine from scratch but they instead decided to support an open project. Just like the underpinnings of OS X which is BSD, NextStep, Darwin and UNIX. They didn't have to leverage these Open Source technologies but they have done and have continued to submit patches upstream and make everything available regardless of license. It's one of the reasons in-fact that x86 hackintoshes are so easy to build due to the Darwin open source project that Apple host on their servers.

XCode is another great example of Open Source by Apple it uses a modified GCC (apple-darwin9-gcc-4.2.1) compiler. XCode is what you use to make any software on the Mac or iPhone.

Apple is a company that leverage's Open Source when they know it will help them to succeed. Just like any other company. Except I guess Microsoft. If I gave the impression that Apple some how created Webkit out of thin air and made it Open Source out of the goodness of their hearts then I apologize as that is not what I meant at all, everyone knows it was a fork of KHTML it's common knowledge.


Offline White Stripes

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Re: Apple boss Steve Jobs explains ban on Flash
« Reply #33 on: May 05, 2010, 07:38:45 pm »
http://www.theinquirer.net/inquirer/news/1595806/eff-posts-apple-s-iphone-sdk-licence-terms (all i have to say about dev for the iphone... no ... its not open.... )

apple is using F/OSS as a crutch... just like it used the open hardware of the apple 2 series of computers to skyrocket itself to creating the very very very closed hardware of the first macintosh systems.... steve jobs is a businessman first and foremost... not a computer guru or geek.... ...im sure youve heard the story of jobs taking the kings share of the money from woz's reduced chip design for the arcade game 'breakout'? (it makes me sick that jobs abused woz like he did... just like westinghouse abused tesla...)

give it time... history will repeat itself (hint: its starting with the iphone/ipod touch and ipad)...

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