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WinMX World :: Forum  |  Discussion  |  WinMx World News  |  VMware and Windows battle it out
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Author Topic: VMware and Windows battle it out  (Read 1917 times)

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Offline DaBees-Knees

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VMware and Windows battle it out
« on: September 01, 2010, 06:33:23 am »
http://www.theregister.co.uk/2010/08/31/paul_maritz_vmworld_keynote/
http://www.theregister.co.uk/2010/08/31/microsoft_vmware_cloud_cold_shower/

Here's something for those of you that like to see both sides of a battle.

Quote
VMware boss: we rise as Windows falls

VMware CEO Paul Maritz has questioned the relevance of the operating system.

According to data lifted from research outfit IDC, more applications were deployed on virtual servers than physical in 2009. This, Maritz says, is a clear indication that operating systems such as Windows and Linux are no longer as important as they once were – though in citing those IDC numbers, the VMware man didn't separate the bare-metal hypervisors from those that run atop an OS.

"This is a tipping point in our industry," Maritz said this morning during his keynote speech at VMware's annual VMworld conference in San Francisco. "One of the implications is that more and more, traditional operating systems no longer see the hardware. This task of mediating access the hardware in the data center is largely being taken over by a new layer of software: virtualization."

Virtualization is not just taking over processing resources, he said, but storage and networking resources as well.

He was careful to say that the operating system is by no means "dead." But he repeatedly returned to the notion that the operating system — and in particular Windows — is being pushed aside. The traditional operating system is not only less relevant when it comes to orchestrating server hardware, but also when it comes to providing an end user with access to applications. Increasingly, access to apps is handled by online services.

Of course, there's still an OS in the mix, but Maritz said that more and more, "the role of providing services to your applications is going to be through [other means]." Your OS, he seemed to be arguing, is no longer your primary means of authentication. It's no longer your primary means of, say, organizing your applications.

"This is just another example of where the traditional operating system is becoming just one of several components that need to fit into your [infrastructure]," he said. And when the operating system does come into play, he added, it's less likely to be Windows. Increasingly, we're using devices — from the Apple iPad to various other handhelds — that run something other than Microsoft's once-ubiquitous operating system.

Today, VMware and Maritz hailed the arrival of what they call "The New Infrastructure" — data center infrastructure in which just about everything is virtualized, including processing, storage, and networking resources as well as security. This New Infrastructure sounds an awful lot like, well, Vmware's product portfolio. But Maritz says that VMware is simply responding to changes in the IT industry as a whole.

VMware, he said more than once, is moving with the tide.

The New Infrastructure, he said, will be served up not only from public net services but also by private data centers. And VMware aims to underpin both, trumpeting the so-called "hybrid" cloud where you can build applications that span the public and the private. "It's important to figure out a way to move workloads out of the data center and onto public services, but it's as important to move it back," he said. "This is going to happen with or without VMware. This is the tide."

This, Maritz explained, is why VMware has been acquiring development tool outfits such as SpringSource and RabbitMQ. These tools, he said, as they adopt fledgling standards, will allow companies to build applications that can be deployed across multiple clouds. "They can provide a portability layer that allows you to take an application and run it in hybrid cloud environments," he said.

As end-user applications are increasing delivered via the net, Maritz explained, VMware also wants to provide "new mechanisms" for providing users with access to applications. Today, the company unveiled a fledgling technology now known as Project Horizon, which will provide a kind of unified access to online application services.

In short, the message from Maritz seemed to be that the everywhere Windows is on the decline, VMware is on the rise

Now for Microsofts Version

Quote
Microsoft douses VMware with cold cloud shower

Microsoft has told users they've got "nothing to lose" by checking out the company's Azure cloud and hosted applications before committing to a deal with archrival VMware.

In an open letter in the national news comic USA Today on Tuesday, Microsoft claimed a three-year contract with VMware would tie customers into a deal with a company lacking both the applications and flexibility needed for the transition to a cloud-based IT infrastructure.

The letter, timed to drop with the opening of VMware's annual VMworld in San Francisco, tried to draw a distinction between using virtualization to consolidate a customer's data center and going further by delivering online services and applications.

The corporate vice president for Microsoft's $14bn server and tools business, Brad Anderson, urged:

VMware is asking many of you to sign three-year license agreements for your virtualization projects. But with the arrival of cloud computing, signing up for a three-year virtualization commitment may lock you into a vendor that cannot provide you with the breadth of technology, flexibility or scale that you'll need to build a complete cloud computing environment.
If you're evaluating a new licensing agreement with VMware, talk to us first. You'll have nothing to lose and plenty to gain... As you build out the next generation of your IT environment we can provide you with the scalable worldwide public cloud computing services that VMware does not offer.

He boasted that Microsoft already offers the "brands you know, use and trust today as cloud computing services," meaning Microsoft Office, Exchange, SharePoint, and SQL.

He also highlighted Windows Azure's support for different languages with the ability to run new and — he claimed — legacy .NET, Java, Ruby on Rails, and PHP applications on Azure. Also, Anderson pointed to the lower price of Microsoft's Hypervisor versus VMware's.

The virtualization giant is one of the companies identified by Microsoft as the reason for a major reorganization of its server and tools business earlier this year. VMware has put Microsoft under intense competitive pressure, according to leaked emails seen by The Reg.

Microsoft believes it has an "opportunity to grow significantly in the Tier-1 Enterprise," but VMware is standing in its way. Server and tools is home to some of the products Microsoft is promoting as being cloud-ready, as Redmond hopes to convert users who are familiar with server versions of Exchange and SharePoint into users of the hosted editions.

These are early days, though, and Microsoft is desperate to sign up genuine customers and partners along with flagship accounts. It's paying partners to convert customers from rivals' services such as Gmail from Google, while wins on hosted versions of Exchange are coming from Lotus Notes and Novell email converts. These are an extension of Microsoft's existing collaboration battles rather than brand new cloud-services wins.

Let battle commence as they say.  :gum:



Offline Bluey_412

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Re: VMware and Windows battle it out
« Reply #1 on: September 01, 2010, 12:37:41 pm »
yes, use VMware for everything, sounds nice...
but, just what powers the platform before it reached the VMware cloud?
EVERY computer, even a *^%^%$& ipad has an operating system, it must have, to drive the basic stuff that lets it connect and use all the other fancy fandoogles...

The catch is that many of those operating systems are near invisible to the user, and, i would suggest, the myopic eyes of Paul Maritz
What you think is important is rarely urgent
But what you think is Urgent is rarely important

Just remember that...

Offline White Stripes

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Re: VMware and Windows battle it out
« Reply #2 on: September 01, 2010, 03:19:21 pm »
@bluey; i think they ment something along the lines of say: coreboot (or bios or efi) -> linux kernel -> vmware -> apps .... the linux kernel running nothing more than vmware.... with vmware running the things that normally would be run by the kernel...

...at least thats the best i understand it...

..at least i hope thats what they mean cos 'bare metal hypervisor' usually translates to 'shitty/buggy proprietary firmware'.... ...the 'toolbox rom' used with the 68k macintosh computers comes to mind....

Offline Bluey_412

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Re: VMware and Windows battle it out
« Reply #3 on: September 01, 2010, 10:02:43 pm »
Gotcha on that, Stripes, and that sounds to me a lot like a proprietary machine, which almost defeats the whole purpose...
What you think is important is rarely urgent
But what you think is Urgent is rarely important

Just remember that...

Offline Pri

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Re: VMware and Windows battle it out
« Reply #4 on: September 02, 2010, 10:58:21 am »
The software that VMware are talking about is there ESX line. It is a hypervisor that you install on your server and it then runs all your operating systems.

The ESX software is not linux however it does include linux (confused yet? lol) basically when the system first starts up with ESX on it, a Linux kernel is booted by ESX and that Linux kernel then loads in the ESX hypervisor kernel known as vmkernel the Linux operating system that was just loaded is then moved from running on the systems hardware to being run as a gust operating system by the vmkernel and ESX.

It is proprietary software but doing it like this allows them to make use of almost any Linux driver for the ESX operating system which immediately helps everyone. Hardware makers just target one operating system and users can get good support.

An example of such good support is the Highpoint line of RAID cards. These are popular in servers because they support every operating system and they also include support for vmware products. This enables you to drop the RAID card in your server (or several of them) and dedicate different cards to different guest operating systems instead of relying on software raid provided by your Guest OS.

The basic reality is that running multiple operating systems in a server environment on a hypervisor just makes sense. You can take a single Quad system and slice it up in to multiple systems for different customers. You could dedicate 2 customers per CPU providing up to 8 VM's from a single machine. Most people don't use a lot of CPU and the hypervisor is smart enough to move around resources so that all customers get a great experience.

Personally I do use vmware on my server. I run Windows Server 2008 R2 (with two Highpoint RAID cards) and I also run FreeNAS. It works wonderfully and my system is rock solid stable. I've had it up for over 100 days and I only rebooted it to install more memory. I suspect it would go years without reboots.

Offline White Stripes

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Re: VMware and Windows battle it out
« Reply #5 on: September 02, 2010, 02:20:16 pm »
nothing could go too many years without reboots... something mechanical that needs a hard shutdown will eventually give up the ghost... (cpu fan... or water pump for water cooled systems... case fans could be replaced with the system running but the chances of a 'screwdriver vs motherboard' incident are too great for me to make such a risk...)

confused on that boot process? a bit but i get the jest... but personally id rather throw more hardware at the situation (since most of what i get is free trashcan finds anyway) than a virtualization software.....

...whats really needed here is a F/OSS replacement for vmware....

-edit: typo-

Offline Pri

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Re: VMware and Windows battle it out
« Reply #6 on: September 02, 2010, 06:48:01 pm »
There already is one its called Xen. http://www.xen.org/

It is well used. I personally prefer vmware. And I do believe my server would stay on for a few years non-stop as my old one stayed on 24.7 for a good 3 years without incident.

Offline White Stripes

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Re: VMware and Windows battle it out
« Reply #7 on: September 03, 2010, 08:30:42 am »
but you told me yourself those water pumps usually go out after ~5yrs...

--edit--

hmm... whats the average life of a fan (air cooled system) left running 24/7? ..if you can give both end of bearing life (noisy fan) and absolute end of life (stopped fan)... that would be even better :P

i cant seem to find a concensus on it o_O

Offline Pri

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Re: VMware and Windows battle it out
« Reply #8 on: September 03, 2010, 11:46:02 am »
It depends on the fan and the pump. I personally buy 5 year pumps for my water cooling systems (which I do not use on servers because that is just stupid) but there are 10 and 15 year rated pumps. And fans they usually range in the 3-5 year span but again you can pay more and get 10-15 year fans as-well.

My old server lasted 3 years 24.7 use before I upgraded it. And I'm still using one fan from that old system in my new server. That fan has been going almost 4 years now, 24.7 use.

In any event I quite clearly said in my post "I suspect it would go years without reboots." 5 years is 2 years more than I was thinking when I wrote that post. And a server would only have to last 2 years non-stop to make my point valid regardless.

Offline Pri

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Re: VMware and Windows battle it out
« Reply #9 on: September 03, 2010, 11:51:06 am »
Oh yeah I just wanted to note that Arctic Cooling fans have a Mean Time before Failure of 45 years. For computer use.

Offline Bluey_412

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Re: VMware and Windows battle it out
« Reply #10 on: September 03, 2010, 12:01:50 pm »
and how do they arrive at that figure? Computers in general have not been around that long

we're talking 1965...
What you think is important is rarely urgent
But what you think is Urgent is rarely important

Just remember that...

Offline White Stripes

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Re: VMware and Windows battle it out
« Reply #11 on: September 03, 2010, 12:08:05 pm »
lol.. wasnt trying to invalidate the point of 'run for years'... there are supposed records of computers running nonstop for 20+ years ('big iron' machines).... just that it doesnt seem a possibility to keep running like that.... 2years? ill give ya... more? ehhhhh.... dunno...

3-5 on fans (cheap ones?) must be lucky on your cheap ones cos the ball-bearing fans start chewing themselves apart (grinding noise) after about 1yr and vibration and lack of airflow becomes a problem after about 2... ive got more 'sorta working' socket 7 / 370 size fans than i can count... :/ (they are good for non-computer related projects where the fan helps but if it stops the equipment doesnt break... as long as you can stand the noise lol) and a 92mm thats ~4yrs old and ... well it makes a breeze... not as much of one as id like or that it used to tho...

fans and western digital hdds... dunno what they dont like about me but they dont like me... lol...

(got a 2gig WD caviar in the windows box... page file only.. that keeps making a hard, and unnerving, THUNK every now and again -- park/unpark recalibration -- but never indicates anything is wrong to SMART utilities while the hitachi 'deathstar' drive i had at one point basically was basically screaming 'im dieing' at the SMART utilities)

Offline Pri

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Re: VMware and Windows battle it out
« Reply #12 on: September 03, 2010, 12:09:17 pm »
Noctua also sell fans with 14 Year MTBF.

Basically to come to this conclusion they simulate the effects of long time usage. They spin them at much faster than needed for a long time and they may damage them on purpose, make them off weight, remove some oil from the ball bearings, cover them in a dust chamber etc There is a science to it.

It is the same way they rate the life of paint by simulating aging. In paint testing they use powerful ultraviolet lights to simulate the effects of sunlight etc

lol.. wasnt trying to invalidate the point of 'run for years'... there are supposed records of computers running nonstop for 20+ years ('big iron' machines).... just that it doesnt seem a possibility to keep running like that.... 2years? ill give ya... more? ehhhhh.... dunno...

3-5 on fans (cheap ones?) must be lucky on your cheap ones cos the ball-bearing fans start chewing themselves apart (grinding noise) after about 1yr and vibration and lack of airflow becomes a problem after about 2... ive got more 'sorta working' socket 7 / 370 size fans than i can count... :/ (they are good for non-computer related projects where the fan helps but if it stops the equipment doesnt break... as long as you can stand the noise lol) and a 92mm thats ~4yrs old and ... well it makes a breeze... not as much of one as id like or that it used to tho...


You are buying cheap fans. I don't buy cheap ones.

Offline Bluey_412

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Re: VMware and Windows battle it out
« Reply #13 on: September 03, 2010, 12:16:11 pm »
it's not uncommon to see old, perfectly good fans thrown off balance and become noisy by those layers of high impact dust accumulations...

Clean em off and they go back to sweet, silent operation

But, as noted before, you can do a fan replace without system shutdown, altho i would hesitate to try that on a CPU cooler

HDD failures seem to be on the increase as capacities increase, note someone's recent comment on the life expectancy of a 3-platter 3Tb drive...  Hot swappability helps, as does RAID...

now we are beginning to describe some fairly high-end hardware, which all needs good driver support or instability can force a reboot as often as every 2 weeks, or even less
What you think is important is rarely urgent
But what you think is Urgent is rarely important

Just remember that...

Offline White Stripes

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Re: VMware and Windows battle it out
« Reply #14 on: September 03, 2010, 12:19:02 pm »
@bluey; MTBF is a very... uh.. ...well lets say its a 'ballpark guess' ....

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mean_time_between_failures

Offline Pri

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Re: VMware and Windows battle it out
« Reply #15 on: September 03, 2010, 12:24:34 pm »
Yes that is true bluey. I have high end hardware in my server. Every part no expense was spared. And it is stable as a rock. It's coming up on 50 days uptime at the moment. It was 100 days before that. So If I never rebooted for the RAM upgrade it would be 150 days right now.

It runs really nice. The board is an ultra durable model by Gigabyte which has twice the PCB thickness with twice the amount of copper for heat dissipation through the back side of the board as-well as less resistance for electricity. It also has two BIOS chips for redundancy and a large multi-stage power circuit for both the Memory and the CPU. Then I run a 1000Watt Corsair HX1000 Power Unit on it. It's huge and beefy to last a long time. But it only pulls around 170 watts from the wall socket. Way overkill but I had it just sitting around.

The CPU and Memory is undervolted for longer life spans and the fans are all premium liquid ball-bearing. The drives are all 2 to 3 platter designs except for the 2TBs but they are all cooled by individual fans and kept at 30 to 35c which is optimum for hardisks as its the temperature where the oil in the motor is most malleable. I spent a lot of time thinking the server out for extreme longevity and lots of uptime. It even has dual nics which are teamed for redundancy so a single port dying won't affect it. And of course I use a 45 Minute UPS for power cuts which includes a voltage ripple corrector for clean power to the PSU even when not working off battery power.

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