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04/03/11 12:33:30> Going online...04/03/11 12:33:30> Room is online on port 669804/03/11 12:33:30> Detecting Public IP...04/03/11 12:33:30> Detected IP: 87.106.*.*04/03/11 12:33:30> Save_WinMX_1DBB6A571A2A04/03/11 12:36:07> + Save-WinMX911_10653 Joind from *.*.*.* to Primary Chan04/03/11 21:56:21> + Observer197_18639 Joined from *.*.*.* to Primary Chan04/03/11 21:57:31> <SaveWinMX911_91191> /setuserlevel Observer197_18639 +vCc04/03/11 21:57:31> < Command executed: +vCc04/03/11 21:59:21> Config.txt has been reloaded04/03/11 22:02:43> <Observer> can anyone pull up a current copyod the blocklist ?04/03/11 22:03:23> <Observer> you will observe that since yesterday some ips have been cleaned up 04/03/11 22:03:39> <Observer> the ones km originally complained about 04/03/11 22:03:57> <Save-WinMX> can you please post a link so we can see?04/03/11 22:04:07> <Observer> he now demands more ip be removed 04/03/11 22:04:16> <Observer> let me find one brb04/03/11 22:05:55> <Observer> newbielink:https://www.winmxworld.com/block/cache_list.txt [nonactive] this seems to be the current list 04/03/11 22:06:35> <Observer> the issue at stake is simple if we give in to kms demands to remove more ips we allow attackers on the network 04/03/11 22:07:06> <Observer> aslo he has already spread files that show the primary rprotocol information 04/03/11 22:07:25> <Observer> its now simpkly a matter of time until someone else exploits that04/03/11 22:07:39> <Observer> so making a deal is worthless 04/03/11 22:07:35> + NotKM333_10221 Joined from *.*.*.* to Primary Chan04/03/11 22:07:49> <SaveWinMX911_91191> /setuserlevel NotKM333_10221 +vCc04/03/11 22:07:49> < Command executed: +vCc04/03/11 22:07:51> <Observer> welcome in 04/03/11 22:08:02> <NotKM> your defenition of attacker is anyone you don't like, or anything you see that you don't understand (quite a lot)04/03/11 22:08:14> <Observer> i dont agree 04/03/11 22:08:23> <NotKM> you are not blocking the flooders that the block list is for, you are blocking users04/03/11 22:08:45> <NotKM> if a user shares files and doesn't obey your order to stop sharing them, you blocklist them, correct?04/03/11 22:09:08> <Observer> km if you asked me on msn days ago to see what those ips are blocked for it would have been a few minutes work to resolve what is and what is not active currently04/03/11 22:09:29> <Observer> you choose to deprive folks04/03/11 22:09:50> <NotKM> why as you something? i already knew the answer, you told me when you blocked me that it was because you hadn't given me permission to share my files04/03/11 22:09:55> <Observer> you have had my msn all week 04/03/11 22:10:04> <Observer> and the means to get the ips removed04/03/11 22:10:17> <NotKM> and the tor exit nodes were when after you blocked me another user decided to share the files via tor to make a point04/03/11 22:10:30> <Observer> i made a temp block to stop those files being shared yes 04/03/11 22:10:34> <NotKM> oh, so you listened when i told you to remove them?04/03/11 22:10:38> <Observer> till we could talk04/03/11 22:10:55> <Observer> you didnt talk you ranted 04/03/11 22:11:01> <NotKM> or are you claiming that you never saw the messages telling you to remove them? because everyone else did...04/03/11 22:11:08> <Observer> i didnt no 04/03/11 22:11:19> <NotKM> so you admit abusing the block list to block users04/03/11 22:11:20> <Observer> nor would i do as they demand04/03/11 22:11:26> <NotKM> not attackers, users04/03/11 22:11:28> <Observer> not users you km04/03/11 22:11:33> <Observer> only you04/03/11 22:11:57> <Save-WinMX> observer: you said this is the current block list: newbielink:https://www.winmxworld.com/block/cache_list.txt [nonactive]04/03/11 22:11:58> <Observer> no one else would endanger the network as you where attenpoting to04/03/11 22:12:05> <Save-WinMX> right?04/03/11 22:12:06> <NotKM> by sharing files that winmxworld does not agree to, someone is an attacker... yes, they are attacking your authority to dictate what people are and are not allowed to do on your network, right?04/03/11 22:12:09> <Observer> its wrong 04/03/11 22:12:25> <Observer> who is they btw ?04/03/11 22:12:30> <Observer> i only see you04/03/11 22:12:40> <Observer> oh and your friend nb04/03/11 22:12:53> <Observer> wwe old times remeber him04/03/11 22:12:57> <NotKM> in your opinion, what is the purpose of the block list?04/03/11 22:13:10> <Observer> its to protect the network against attackers04/03/11 22:13:15> <NotKM> and how do you define attackers?04/03/11 22:13:27> <Observer> those who seek to damgae or attack the network04/03/11 22:13:30> <NotKM> is sharing a file an attack?04/03/11 22:13:36> <Observer> its the files contents04/03/11 22:13:39> <NotKM> is hosting a chat room an attack?04/03/11 22:13:43> <Observer> your aware of that04/03/11 22:13:51> <Observer> no thats not an attack04/03/11 22:14:10> <Observer> sharing primary protocol stuff loses us the whole network04/03/11 22:14:16> <Observer> you know that04/03/11 22:14:18> <NotKM> then why did you blocklist channel hosts?04/03/11 22:14:40> <NotKM> so, it is your decision what i do with files i created?04/03/11 22:14:48> <Observer> i dont run the blocklist at the time your mentioning km so i cannot say at this exact moment04/03/11 22:15:04> <Observer> i made the choice to block those yes04/03/11 22:15:12> <Observer> by blocing you04/03/11 22:15:20> <NotKM> if you don't run the block list, it's nothing to do with you, i want to speak to the person abusing the block list04/03/11 22:15:22> <Observer> those will damage mx 04/03/11 22:15:43> <Observer> so now you dont want to speak you are back to demanding 04/03/11 22:15:46> <NotKM> i've wasted days going around and around in circles with you always ending with the "oh it's nothing to do with me" line then starting all over again04/03/11 22:16:16> <Observer> km you and i both know i can do whats right for the network but you need to do whats right too 04/03/11 22:16:29> <Observer> stop attacking it as a sign of good faith04/03/11 22:16:44> <NotKM> the block list is used to block users from the entire network, who is it that decides who is and is not allowed on the network? that is the person i wish to speak to, if that is not you then stop wasting my time going around in circles with the same BS over and over again04/03/11 22:17:11> <Observer> aslo provide a list of ips your not sure are lkegitimately blocked 04/03/11 22:17:26> <Observer> ppl are watching you 04/03/11 22:17:32> <Observer> do the right thing 04/03/11 22:18:09> <Save-WinMX> may i interrupt?04/03/11 22:18:13> <NotKM> i have made repeated signs of good faith when it looked like someone was about to update the block list to remove the abusive entries, then after several hours the changes had still not been made so i resumed... stop asking me to keep stopping in good faith when all i am getting from winmxworld is time wasting and bullshit04/03/11 22:18:14> <Observer> please do 04/03/11 22:18:37> <Save-WinMX> km .. is that alright with you?04/03/11 22:18:49> <NotKM> one second i'll provide you with the annotation of the list i gave you the other day because you're claiming to not know what to unblock again...04/03/11 22:19:14> <Save-WinMX> ok... we'll wait for that04/03/11 22:19:20> <Observer> hmm 04/03/11 22:19:26> <Observer> thats productive 04/03/11 22:19:47> <Save-WinMX> pls.. just lets wait a moment observer04/03/11 22:20:17> <Save-WinMX> while he is looking for the list..04/03/11 22:20:20> <NotKM> newbielink:http://pastebin.com/yZ4wzrZE [nonactive] i will point out that from the OVH servers the specific one i told them i knew for a fact should not be on there was silently removed, the others appear to have not been investigated any further04/03/11 22:20:37> <Observer> km used to be a part of wmw folks so he knows that some of the questions he has asked in othe rooms wont be answered for security purposes 04/03/11 22:20:44> <Observer> i,ll look at the list now 04/03/11 22:21:20> <NotKM> the tor exit nodes should not be on there... if you wish to ban tor users from your chat room then you are free to do so, as you are free to ban users from your chat room for sharing files you don't want them sharing, however extending those bans to the entire network is not what the block list is for04/03/11 22:21:46> <NotKM> what, the question of who is responsible for the block list is a security issue now?04/03/11 22:21:59> <NotKM> who it is you're asking everyone to trust is a security issue?04/03/11 22:22:00> <Observer> hold tight km i cant gather info if you multipl post04/03/11 22:22:18> <Observer> get some tea 04/03/11 22:22:33> <NotKM> i think we should ban newspapers from reporting on the identity of presidents/prime ministers for security reasons, they should not be held accountable, for security reasons04/03/11 22:22:47> <Observer> do you want the info or not ?04/03/11 22:23:00> <Observer> i thought we wanted openness04/03/11 22:23:53> <NotKM> you've known for days what i wanted... how long will it take you to get the reasons behind all the block list entries, and to remove the ones that should not be there? (for example the tor ones)04/03/11 22:23:55> <Observer> newbielink:http://pastebin.com/yZ4wzrZE [nonactive] i cant see this 04/03/11 22:24:10> <Observer> can you use another service please04/03/11 22:26:00> <NotKM> i assume you're planning on going and finding who added each entry to the blocklist and why, correct? then i imagine my annotated version of the block list from a couple of days ago is of little use anyway04/03/11 22:26:10> <Observer> i am yes 04/03/11 22:26:48> <Observer> o can already see raps asked for the ovh to be blocked and it was confirmed as a cache hammerer 04/03/11 22:27:16> <Save-WinMX> newbielink:http://beautify.it/kmlist.txt [nonactive]04/03/11 22:27:47> <NotKM> then i imagine shortly there will be an updated block list with any entries that shouldn't have been added, or which were added ages ago and shouldn't be there any more, will be removed... and the remaining entries will have the detail of what they were doing and why they are being kept on there, then there won't be an issue, right?04/03/11 22:27:52> <SaveWinMX911_91191> /setuserlevel Save-WinMX911_10653 +c04/03/11 22:27:52> < Command executed: +c04/03/11 22:27:56> <SaveWinMX911_91191> /setuserlevel Save-WinMX911_10653 +C04/03/11 22:27:56> < Command executed: +C04/03/11 22:28:23> <NotKM> so querying the cache multiple times?04/03/11 22:28:29> <Observer> why do you say should no of been added when you know they require two ppl to see the problem before they get added ?04/03/11 22:28:50> <NotKM> i would imagine if that was a criteria for blocklisting someone you would have a much longer list than that, considering how chat servers have been failing recently04/03/11 22:28:50> <Observer> iif its there its up to no good 04/03/11 22:29:00> <Observer> your now off topicing 04/03/11 22:29:25> <NotKM> because i can give an example of one that should not have been added... mine04/03/11 22:29:30> <NotKM> and another... the tor exit nodes04/03/11 22:29:38> <NotKM> and another... the chat hosts04/03/11 22:30:06> <Observer> you sod to josh chat host singular04/03/11 22:30:09> <Observer> said*04/03/11 22:30:21> <Observer> why do you peris in misleding 04/03/11 22:30:23> <NotKM> oh and another... josh, i always forget him, lol04/03/11 22:30:27> <Observer> persist*04/03/11 22:30:39> <NotKM> you even admitted you added him abusively04/03/11 22:30:45> <Observer> josh was taken out of the equation 04/03/11 22:30:54> <NotKM> after you apparently resigned and were therefore not able to add things to the blocklist04/03/11 22:30:57> <Observer> to ensure he was not the attacker04/03/11 22:31:04> <NotKM> but nobody is believing that lie04/03/11 22:31:05> <Observer> as his name was on the list 04/03/11 22:31:24> <Observer> you nbelieved that lie 04/03/11 22:31:38> <Observer> i spoke to you that same night 04/03/11 22:31:48> <Observer> you made no complaints 04/03/11 22:32:01> <NotKM> but at least now you're confirming the resignation was BS, and you in fact do speak for winmxworld, right?04/03/11 22:32:08> <Observer> in fact it seems all this is to drag me back 04/03/11 22:32:21> <Observer> i resign you go ape 04/03/11 22:32:49> <Observer> all the folks in this room know me 04/03/11 22:33:19> <Observer> i,m a well known and trusted user 04/03/11 22:33:56> <NotKM> i don't give a shit about you, i got blocked from the network because i shared some files i had every right to share, i gave winmxworld (ie. you) plenty of time to correct that, but no... so i decided i'd have to force you to... i really didn't think you'd be quite as bad as you are though, insisting that not doing anything to resolve things was in the best interests of the community for this long04/03/11 22:34:02> <Observer> you have escalted you annoyance upon god knows how many users 04/03/11 22:34:06> <Save-WinMX> Sorry to interrupt again..04/03/11 22:34:15> <NotKM> you are a liar and a coward04/03/11 22:34:15> <Observer> you decided you would have to use force eh04/03/11 22:34:16> <Save-WinMX> but please keep your language clean04/03/11 22:34:42> <Observer> you couldnt use msn ?04/03/11 22:34:52> <Observer> and speak to me your friend 04/03/11 22:35:45> <Observer> you may be upset but you know i would not deliberately abuse anyone , even blocking you was a temporary measure 04/03/11 22:36:04> <NotKM> because i shouldn't have had to tell you it was me for you to stop being abusive04/03/11 22:36:08> <Observer> you have after all not explaned why you wish to share attack data 04/03/11 22:36:20> <Observer> please tell me here 04/03/11 22:36:23> <Observer> why04/03/11 22:36:37> <NotKM> you shouldn't be blocking users, if it's me then you'd have resolved it, but because you didn't know it was me that was fine and OK to block users?04/03/11 22:36:48> <Observer> thats not the case 04/03/11 22:36:59> <NotKM> no "attack data" has been shared04/03/11 22:37:00> <Observer> anyone can use the forum to demand answers04/03/11 22:37:08> <Observer> even you04/03/11 22:37:25> <Observer> so what do you call what you shared ?04/03/11 22:37:44> <NotKM> no i can't actually, because the forum is set to require admins to approve membership requests, which was refused04/03/11 22:37:56> <NotKM> i shared protocol documentation that i wrote04/03/11 22:38:20> <Observer> and your aware that info can be used to do just what you are doing now ?04/03/11 22:38:34> <Observer> https://forum.winmxworld.com/index.php?topic=5396.0.html this proves he knows 04/03/11 22:38:39> <NotKM> are you aware that winmxworld is sharing something that would be even more useful?04/03/11 22:39:05> <Observer> km hiding stuff in plain sight was common even under your running wmw 04/03/11 22:39:27> <NotKM> the source code to a chat server tells you everything about the protocol that would be needed to do what i am doing at the moment, in a far more convenient way than writing something from scratch from documentation04/03/11 22:39:56> <Observer> but you know the packtets for chatrooms dont need the addtional data you incuded04/03/11 22:40:04> <Observer> there are not the same dat04/03/11 22:40:06> <Observer> a04/03/11 22:40:37> <NotKM> however as you are well aware, anyone who wanted to do damage could easily have done so, and has been able to do so for years... you're also aware that the only reason for trying to keep such tight control of the remaining documentation to make things easier for developers is to keep control over the network04/03/11 22:40:48> <Observer> but your making it easier for them 04/03/11 22:41:08> <Observer> and you know we have a developers section04/03/11 22:41:18> <Observer> where info can be shared resonsibly04/03/11 22:41:21> <Observer> and is04/03/11 22:41:30> <NotKM> "them"? you mean the riaa etc? they already know everything they care to know about the network, did you forget they made their own clients years ago? you must do because that's the entire reason there is a block list04/03/11 22:41:43> <Observer> they did not make their own client 04/03/11 22:41:50> <Observer> i read the md srcs04/03/11 22:42:00> <Observer> they copied and modified open src04/03/11 22:42:05> <Observer> and only secondary04/03/11 22:42:22> <NotKM> your point being? are you saying that secondary is easier than primary?04/03/11 22:42:27> <NotKM> because that's certainly not the case04/03/11 22:42:27> <Observer> its called trapper keeper if your a history buff 04/03/11 22:43:01> <Observer> i,m saying you have made a concious decision to damge the network 04/03/11 22:43:09> <Observer> but for why ?04/03/11 22:43:17> <NotKM> primary TCP seems to be your main concern, i wrote that document in about 5 minutes prior to sharing it (as i'd never bothered documenting it because it was so simple), hence the typo in the original version... it is very easy to work out as you well know04/03/11 22:43:18> <Observer> i cant understand 04/03/11 22:43:29> <Observer> why did you share it04/03/11 22:43:49> <NotKM> as you are aware sharing those files is not "damage to the network"04/03/11 22:43:58> <Observer> when you know all here rely on it remianing in your brain04/03/11 22:44:19> <NotKM> i shared it because i have every right to share whatever the hell i like, it is not your job to tell people what they are and are not allowed to share04/03/11 22:44:42> <Observer> so you dont care what the ramification are of that sharing ?04/03/11 22:44:51> <SaveWinMX911_91191> /setuserlevel !¥°´Z`°¥´Sêxy-ßiêst`¥°´O`°¥!390_10532 +v04/03/11 22:44:51> < Command executed: +v04/03/11 22:44:56> <SaveWinMX911_91191> /setuserlevel !¥°´Z`°¥´Sêxy-ßiêst`¥°´O`°¥!390_10532 +c04/03/11 22:44:56> < Command executed: +c04/03/11 22:44:59> <SaveWinMX911_91191> /setuserlevel !¥°´Z`°¥´Sêxy-ßiêst`¥°´O`°¥!390_10532 +C04/03/11 22:44:59> < Command executed: +C04/03/11 22:45:04> <SaveWinMX911_91191> /setuserlevel !¥°´Z`°¥´Sêxy-ßiêst`¥°´O`°¥!390_10532 +*04/03/11 22:45:04> < Command executed: +*04/03/11 22:45:31> <Observer> i heard you mention free speech 04/03/11 22:45:41> <Observer> i see many unvoiced now 04/03/11 22:45:49> <NotKM> if you really wish to argue the question of how harmful that information is to the network, can we begin by you in your opinion stating who out of the 2 of us is most knowledgeable about the WPN, and is therefore best qualified to say what is and is not damaging?04/03/11 22:46:22> <Observer> are you saying you know more because your the best coder here or that you know more ?04/03/11 22:46:30> <Save-WinMX> the reason they are unvoiced is that you have the possibility to discuss without beeing interrupted.04/03/11 22:46:55> <Observer> https://forum.winmxworld.com/index.php?topic=5396.0.html this is that same discussion 04/03/11 22:47:02> <Observer> from years ago 04/03/11 22:47:27> <Observer> you dont gain any rights to steal the network from folks because you know how it works04/03/11 22:47:36> <NotKM> i'm pointing out that you're claiming harm, i'm claiming not, and i am asking who you think out of the 2 of us would actually know best if it was harmful or not04/03/11 22:47:37> <Observer> i too know how it works04/03/11 22:48:05> <Observer> well i say let the ppl say if they think you should be able to wipe the chat list?04/03/11 22:48:10> <NotKM> i am not stealing the network, that implies taking it over... looks to me like you're the one controlling who is and is not allowed on it?04/03/11 22:48:19> <Observer> i would say they dont want you to share that info04/03/11 22:48:26> <Observer> but you are 04/03/11 22:48:39> <Observer> yyour stopping tens of thousands using it04/03/11 22:48:50> <Observer> silencing their rights 04/03/11 22:48:54> <Observer> and them04/03/11 22:49:20> <NotKM> i would suggest you think back to the conversations you've had with users over the last few days... how many of them told you they thought you should remove the entries from the block list that shouldn't be there, and how many told you to keep them on there?04/03/11 22:49:33> <NotKM> if you want to talk about doing what users want...04/03/11 22:49:52> <Observer> km we can move on to that in an instant ips that flood and attack need to be on the list 04/03/11 22:50:00> <NotKM> the winmxworld admins have been hiding from their own chat room for days because of the sheer number of users telling them they're doing the wrong thing, and you want to get started on listening to users?04/03/11 22:50:12> <Observer> you dont run the caches so you cant say what hits them04/03/11 22:50:23> <NotKM> and ips that share files, or host chat rooms?04/03/11 22:50:27> <Observer> nor do you use all the same monitoting tools as we do04/03/11 22:50:42> <Observer> so your not in the best place to see and make the deciiosn04/03/11 22:50:50> <Observer> whatevr you claim04/03/11 22:51:10> <Observer> i got a plan 04/03/11 22:51:13> <Save-WinMX> do you mind if i try and find a solution right now?04/03/11 22:51:21> <Observer> why dont you take over making the blocklist ?04/03/11 22:51:24> <NotKM> so you're claiming you could see something about my ip address that i couldn't see which is why it was blocked, and that you lied when you told me it was for sharing files?04/03/11 22:51:37> <Observer> why mislead04/03/11 22:51:47> <Observer> i blocked you for haring those files 04/03/11 22:51:54> <Observer> no any old user but you04/03/11 22:52:06> <Observer> no one is denying that04/03/11 22:52:09> <Save-WinMX> sorry to interrupt you.. but could we try and find a solution instead of looking whos fault it is?04/03/11 22:52:14> <NotKM> the solution is simple, it's the same as it has been for days - remove the entries on the blocklist that are so obviously not RIAA flooders, and then longer term justify the remaining ones04/03/11 22:52:19> <Observer> and after i saw what was in the files in deatil i resigned 04/03/11 22:52:31> <Observer> i knew we had lost the battel 04/03/11 22:52:41> <Save-WinMX> may i?04/03/11 22:52:49> <Observer> once that data is about we are all wasting our time here 04/03/11 22:52:52> <Observer> sure04/03/11 22:53:07> <Save-WinMX> km... could you also listen for a moment?04/03/11 22:53:13> <NotKM> i am listening04/03/11 22:53:19> <Save-WinMX> ok.. thank you04/03/11 22:53:40> <Save-WinMX> first of all.. thanks for comming here and talking in public.. i realy appreciate that04/03/11 22:54:11> <Save-WinMX> the problem we'r having is that both of you are turning around in circles.. and this will never come to an end04/03/11 22:54:50> <Save-WinMX> now.. i would like to offer something.. that might suite both off you.. 04/03/11 22:55:01> <Save-WinMX> first km:04/03/11 22:55:45> <Save-WinMX> despite the fact that it is your right to share whatever you want, is it realy good for winmx if you share something that could cause a lot of problems if made public?04/03/11 22:56:17> <NotKM> i did that years ago and nobody had a problem with it04/03/11 22:56:33> <Save-WinMX> that does not matter right now.. lets stay here and not move to the past04/03/11 22:56:45> <Save-WinMX> please just answer the question from the current view04/03/11 22:56:48> <NotKM> httpss://archive.winmxworld.com/KingMacro/MCS/ hosted on winmxworld of all places04/03/11 22:57:15> <Save-WinMX> that also does not belong here04/03/11 22:57:32> <Save-WinMX> is it good for winmx to share such value information?04/03/11 22:57:57> <NotKM> as i've said, anyone who wants to attack the network in this way can do so and the information to do so has been avaliable for years - it didn't even need me to release anything, most of the credit is due to nushi who provided all the tools needed to easily work these things out04/03/11 22:58:47> <Save-WinMX> ok... but now it has drawn so much attention..04/03/11 22:59:07> <NotKM> winmx isn't some high security network that's impossible to attack except for some really hard obscure attack method that nobody could possibly know about unless they were told it - the only security it has was the encryption, since that was made public is has been wide open to anyone who wanted to take the time to look at it04/03/11 22:59:38> <Save-WinMX> ok... then lets get to the next point.04/03/11 22:59:42> <Observer> but must we write up a handbook to help such exploiters ?04/03/11 22:59:46> <NotKM> you can blame the person who tried to stop me sharing the files for the attention they got, i doubt there would have been a single download had it been ignored04/03/11 23:00:08> <Observer> your friend tried to stop you 04/03/11 23:00:19> <Save-WinMX> ok.. stop please im not finished...04/03/11 23:00:20> <NotKM> there's no handbook on how to attack the network, just a list of packet formats to save someone the 5 minutes it would take to work it out from a packet dump04/03/11 23:00:57> <Observer> i do not agree i,m sorry 04/03/11 23:01:27> <Save-WinMX> there is nothing we can do about it now Observer... that has happened..04/03/11 23:01:36> <Save-WinMX> now its the time to fix what can be fixed04/03/11 23:02:10> <Observer> indeed ans i am concerned that as it has happened we are simply wasting time trying to stop one attacker when ssoo there will be many04/03/11 23:02:22> <Observer> soon*04/03/11 23:02:42> <Save-WinMX> thats why im asking KM: would you agree (even though its spread already) to unshare the files?04/03/11 23:03:09> <Save-WinMX> please just answer with a simple yes or no04/03/11 23:03:39> <NotKM> i don't even have the files shared, lol04/03/11 23:03:53> <Save-WinMX> but winmxleaks.tk is yours?04/03/11 23:03:55> <Observer> he posted them on a web site 04/03/11 23:04:29> <Save-WinMX> km?04/03/11 23:04:36> <Observer> this shows malicious intent i feel 04/03/11 23:05:47> <NotKM> like it would make any difference, but that website is currently down and i had no intention to bring it back up - however i would suggest to anyone else to host the files on their website to make them easier to find04/03/11 23:06:16> <Save-WinMX> ok.. so you agree not to make these files public again?04/03/11 23:06:23> <Save-WinMX> only you.. nobody else04/03/11 23:06:34> <NotKM> no04/03/11 23:06:54> <NotKM> no, i just don't have any plans to host anything winmx related04/03/11 23:07:08> <Save-WinMX> ok.. thanks.04/03/11 23:07:10> <NotKM> but i have released those files to anyone who wants them, as is my right to do so as the author04/03/11 23:07:53> <Save-WinMX> thats not the point here.. because i think if a chap from jap. wants them you would not give them :)04/03/11 23:08:05> <Save-WinMX> ok.. next point04/03/11 23:08:18> <Save-WinMX> Observer.04/03/11 23:08:22> <Observer> hmm04/03/11 23:08:40> <Save-WinMX> All the IP's currently on the block list... are they currently attacking the network?04/03/11 23:08:46> <Observer> not all no 04/03/11 23:08:55> <Observer> some are a few days old 04/03/11 23:09:06> <Save-WinMX> is there proove of the attack?04/03/11 23:09:43> <Save-WinMX> screenshots/logs?04/03/11 23:09:46> <Observer> data is always stored on the siste to show attacks in a private section accessible to rapns nobby and the protection group memebers 04/03/11 23:10:04> <Observer> all entries are double checked 04/03/11 23:10:27> <Observer> thats not to say we rush to remove old ips04/03/11 23:10:32> <Observer> i agree we dont04/03/11 23:10:48> <NotKM> would that not be better public, in the interests of transparency?04/03/11 23:11:02> <NotKM> if it's already there04/03/11 23:11:06> <Save-WinMX> something like km said would have been my offer04/03/11 23:11:17> <Observer> we used to do that until they started using that list to plan their activites 04/03/11 23:11:31> <Observer> if we list annip they swap it over faster04/03/11 23:11:42> <Save-WinMX> but it should not be public to EVERYONE.. but only to members of WinMXWorld Board (everyone can register)04/03/11 23:11:56> <Observer> km knows they still use the same ips on diff networks when they are not attacking winmx 04/03/11 23:12:12> <NotKM> so you think by not detailing the reason behind blocks, they can't find out what's on the block list? do you really think they don't know how to check the list?04/03/11 23:12:19> <Observer> nobby acts as representative for mxpie.com04/03/11 23:12:27> <Observer> raps for winmx4u04/03/11 23:12:35> <Observer> its quite democratic04/03/11 23:13:03> <Observer> we also log strange activity thats not an issue yet04/03/11 23:13:10> <Save-WinMX> still the question if it could be made partially public?04/03/11 23:13:13> <Observer> and log the ips to be watched out for04/03/11 23:13:44> <Observer> it could but we would ask to protect those gathing the information 04/03/11 23:14:20> <Save-WinMX> im sure there is a solution to that.. as long as the info is proven to be trustworthy04/03/11 23:14:32> <Observer> indedd well we have no issue with that 04/03/11 23:14:37> <NotKM> so in other words, you do not think that when someone is banned from the network you should have to answer to anyone as to why you did it?04/03/11 23:14:37> <Observer> ttrust is everything 04/03/11 23:14:59> <Observer> i dont think the site flks mind answering 04/03/11 23:15:05> <Save-WinMX> km please.. lets get the basics first...04/03/11 23:15:12> <Observer> just we dont make skilled ppl targets04/03/11 23:15:24> <Observer> ppl with tools we dont want seized04/03/11 23:15:57> <Save-WinMX> ok.. so now we are able to see the list of banned ip's and proof that they are attacking the network...04/03/11 23:16:48> <Save-WinMX> there should net be a need to explain anything to anyone - since only users attacking the network are banned04/03/11 23:16:51> <Observer> that will take a bit of time to set out as i have to speak to toad and get the protection group memebers new acccounts etc and remove info that shows who they are 04/03/11 23:17:12> <Save-WinMX> tcan we set a time limit?04/03/11 23:17:14> <Observer> but it can be done04/03/11 23:17:34> <Save-WinMX> 2 days?04/03/11 23:17:57> <Observer> 3 would be better as we will need to work though lots of entries 04/03/11 23:18:04> <Save-WinMX> ok...04/03/11 23:18:08> <Observer> from hundreds of posts04/03/11 23:18:11> <Save-WinMX> km u allright with that?04/03/11 23:18:39> <Observer> also we have a proble in the making here 04/03/11 23:18:51> <Observer> some screen shots may show the monitoring ip04/03/11 23:19:02> <NotKM> easy to cover that04/03/11 23:19:09> <Save-WinMX> can be partially blacked04/03/11 23:19:28> <Observer> ok that fine i just wanted you all to understand the reason for that04/03/11 23:19:37> <Save-WinMX> of course04/03/11 23:19:47> <Save-WinMX> ok... km? thats ok?04/03/11 23:20:21> <NotKM> transparancy isn't something that can be done instantly and that's understandable, but removing the stuff that we know the reason for it being added is a 2 second action, which is what should have been done days ago04/03/11 23:20:39> <Observer> i believe its the way your asking 04/03/11 23:20:40> <Save-WinMX> thats my next point04/03/11 23:20:59> <Save-WinMX> lets just finish this first please04/03/11 23:21:07> <Observer> my apologies 04/03/11 23:21:13> <Save-WinMX> are both of you ok with the last part?04/03/11 23:21:31> <Observer> i,m happy to get what need to be done done 04/03/11 23:21:54> <Observer> wmw are not oppsed to anything you have asked in principal 04/03/11 23:22:08> <Save-WinMX> km?04/03/11 23:22:32> <Save-WinMX> please stay in line here so we can get this done04/03/11 23:23:07> <NotKM> as i've said from the start, if the entries we know shouldn't be there (ie. me and the tor ones) are removed then it'll stop, then checking up on the rest i always accepted they wouldn't do instantly (although they could have done it by now!)04/03/11 23:24:07> <NotKM> as i said i have no idea the story behind the others, and i was just raising questions about the legitimacy of those, mine and the tor ones i knew the reason behind04/03/11 23:24:18> <Save-WinMX> ok.. so its a yes - you are ok with the last part?04/03/11 23:24:43> <Observer> the others have been used to spam the room 04/03/11 23:24:53> <Observer> tor proxies are a nightmare atm04/03/11 23:25:05> <Save-WinMX> is it so hard to answer with a simple yes/no?04/03/11 23:25:12> <Observer> but we understamd their lifetime is short04/03/11 23:25:47> <NotKM> the blocklist isn't for banning people from your room, that's my point04/03/11 23:25:55> <Save-WinMX> we'll get to that km04/03/11 23:26:02> <Observer> its often the case they hit mutiple rooms04/03/11 23:26:06> <Save-WinMX> please lets focus on the last part and get a straight answer04/03/11 23:26:07> <Observer> as you know04/03/11 23:26:21> <NotKM> if you think someone being banned from your room justifies blocking them from the entire network, you really aren't getting it...04/03/11 23:26:33> <Observer> thats not what i said 04/03/11 23:26:45> <Save-WinMX> stop it right there please04/03/11 23:27:04> <Save-WinMX> we'r drifting off again.. 04/03/11 23:27:37> <Save-WinMX> please km .. let me know if making the blocklist more transparent is ok with you (yes/no)04/03/11 23:28:12> <NotKM> of course, i'll hardly say no keep it closed and secret :P04/03/11 23:28:23> <Save-WinMX> ok.. thank you04/03/11 23:28:27> <Save-WinMX> next point04/03/11 23:29:03> <Save-WinMX> currently there are IP's on that list, that dont belong there, since they did not attack the network04/03/11 23:29:12> <Save-WinMX> is that right?04/03/11 23:29:22> <Observer> i cant say that 04/03/11 23:29:42> <Observer> if its there two ppl saw it doiong something 04/03/11 23:29:59> <Save-WinMX> so there is proove for that?04/03/11 23:30:16> <Observer> i hope so ..lol04/03/11 23:30:34> <Save-WinMX> but you dont know?04/03/11 23:30:41> <Observer> you will be able to see for yourself 04/03/11 23:30:45> <Observer> no i dont 04/03/11 23:30:54> <Observer> we will make it all open04/03/11 23:31:04> <Observer> you will be able to see for yourself 04/03/11 23:31:04> <NotKM> if someone was to attack via tor and they hit 2 users, they probably won't have seen the same IP04/03/11 23:31:26> <Observer> unless they hit mutiple chats 04/03/11 23:31:39> <Observer> in which case many would have seen them04/03/11 23:32:22> <Save-WinMX> ok.. i know this might sound strange.. but what would happen.. if those tor IP's get removed from the list till the proove is availeble for everyone to see?04/03/11 23:32:44> <Save-WinMX> which should be in 3 days...04/03/11 23:33:14> <Observer> what would happen is ppl when then leave here believeing we blocked those ips for nothing and thats not the case04/03/11 23:33:34> <Observer> although they may not be a current threat now04/03/11 23:33:45> <NotKM> so the problem is the undermining of your authority?04/03/11 23:33:57> <Observer> the trust of the list km 04/03/11 23:34:09> <Observer> if theres no trust it cant be used 04/03/11 23:34:16> <Observer> it relies on trust04/03/11 23:34:26> <Observer> you know this 04/03/11 23:34:36> <Save-WinMX> yes..04/03/11 23:34:52> <NotKM> if the trust is underseved, then you should do whatever it takes to try and keep undeserved trust whatever the cost?04/03/11 23:34:52> <Save-WinMX> ok... but if i'm the one telling you to remove it.. im to blame..04/03/11 23:34:57> <Save-WinMX> so you dont lose your face..04/03/11 23:35:05> <NotKM> is that why you didn't just remove them and end it all days ago?04/03/11 23:35:32> <Observer> i,m soory save but i have to decline that offer of you taking the hit 04/03/11 23:35:54> <Observer> we do not give in to bullies 04/03/11 23:36:00> <NotKM> i'd think people would trust you more for admitting a mistake and correcting it than for having dragged things out and deliberately avoided resolving things for this long04/03/11 23:36:03> <Observer> whoever they are 04/03/11 23:36:11> <Save-WinMX> its not giving in..04/03/11 23:36:17> <Save-WinMX> its saving winmx observer..04/03/11 23:36:19> <Observer> if you hold a stick at us we are not frinds 04/03/11 23:36:30> <Save-WinMX> im trying to find a solution thats for both sides the best....04/03/11 23:36:34> <Observer> we can only do a deal as freidns 04/03/11 23:37:08> <Save-WinMX> thats why im trying to make a deal.. not km..04/03/11 23:37:19> <Save-WinMX> i am a friend of the winmx network...04/03/11 23:37:36> <Save-WinMX> im not holding any sticks..04/03/11 23:37:36> <NotKM> so those IP addresses are not attacking winmx, but you won't remove them from the block list and end things because you don't want things to end?04/03/11 23:37:47> <Observer> restore the roomlist km and if the list is not fixed you can feel ok to fire up your attack script 04/03/11 23:38:05> <Save-WinMX> km.. would you do that step?04/03/11 23:38:28> <Save-WinMX> then wait 3 days.... for the proove of attack to be public04/03/11 23:38:30> <Observer> you say your here to make a pint i believe folks have seen your pint 04/03/11 23:38:44> <Observer> point even..lol04/03/11 23:38:55> <NotKM> i've stopped several times and they've not sorted out the list04/03/11 23:39:13> <NotKM> there is nothing stopping him doing it right now04/03/11 23:39:16> <Observer> the threats did not stop and yes i have seen that you have stopped 04/03/11 23:39:25> <Save-WinMX> if there realy is a attack coming from that tor adress... then everything is ok... but if there is NOT.. then WMW should remove those ips straigh away04/03/11 23:39:28> <Observer> and restsrted at intervals04/03/11 23:39:39> <NotKM> it would take less time for him to remove the entries than it would take for the attack traffic to stop causing a problem04/03/11 23:40:02> <Observer> the issue is simply this we must have trust and its not nice to attack your friends 04/03/11 23:40:21> <Observer> you trust me 04/03/11 23:40:26> <Observer> make it happen 04/03/11 23:40:59> <Save-WinMX> observer.. can you get us only one proove for the attacks that happened right now?04/03/11 23:41:29> <Observer> i,m not sure what ip your asking that for ?04/03/11 23:41:39> <Observer> thats not a minor list04/03/11 23:42:09> <Save-WinMX> km.. wich ip do you want to be proven? (please only one - the rest will follow in 3 days)04/03/11 23:43:04> <NotKM> i want the tor ones removed (and mine), then 3 days to give reasons for the rest is fine...04/03/11 23:43:33> <Observer> which one is yours i been hunting that ionfo for days now : )04/03/11 23:43:42> <Observer> to block..lol04/03/11 23:43:45> <Save-WinMX> pls pm that...04/03/11 23:43:49> <NotKM> the one that was removed then re-added, lol04/03/11 23:44:00> <Save-WinMX> and the tor ones?04/03/11 23:44:24> <Save-WinMX> observer.. are you ok with that?04/03/11 23:44:26> <Observer> the tor ones are of no consequence atm they can be lost immediatly 04/03/11 23:44:35> <Observer> they are temp blocks04/03/11 23:44:47> <Observer> i need kms ip 04/03/11 23:45:06> <Save-WinMX> km... please pm it to observer..04/03/11 23:45:25> <Observer> me gets out the loic cannon..lol04/03/11 23:45:36> <Observer> come on km 04/03/11 23:45:37> <NotKM> the first one04/03/11 23:45:59> <NotKM> at the top of the list of "temp" entries04/03/11 23:46:21> <Observer> one initalled my vpn ?04/03/11 23:46:22> <Save-WinMX> if any of the IP's get added again b4 the 3 days are over and there is a public area with the ban list.... KM can start the attac again till that is sorted out.. otherwise.. the attacks are now off.. is that ok with both of you??04/03/11 23:47:20> <Observer> i,mnnever going to say i care for attacks but i am surew we will not be found the ones breaking a deal 04/03/11 23:47:51> <Save-WinMX> thanks observer..04/03/11 23:47:54> <Save-WinMX> KM?04/03/11 23:48:04> <NotKM> when the entries are removed from the block list i shall stop, as i said from the start, heh04/03/11 23:48:13> <Observer> none of this will happen till the attacks cease, we cannot do a deal with attacks going on 04/03/11 23:48:23> <Observer> thats not friendly04/03/11 23:48:48> <Save-WinMX> how about a time limit.... 04/03/11 23:49:04> <Save-WinMX> 12 minutes left04/03/11 23:49:15> <NotKM> when i see the block list has had the entries removed i shall stop it04/03/11 23:49:27> <Save-WinMX> when the time is up... BOTH of you have done the right thing04/03/11 23:49:53> <NotKM> consider that the time it will take you to a reply, you could have removed the entries and then it would stop04/03/11 23:49:59> <Observer> as a sign of good will i can get the tors removed but anything further i want you to do the right thing 04/03/11 23:50:09> <Observer> and stop04/03/11 23:50:13> <Save-WinMX> thats a deal.. km?04/03/11 23:50:40> <NotKM> as i've said from day one, remove mine and the tor ones and i shall stop, my position has not changed on that04/03/11 23:50:54> <Observer> then we reach an impasse04/03/11 23:51:02> <Save-WinMX> just a sec Observer04/03/11 23:51:19> <NotKM> although since then i've heard about many other abuses, hence raising the issue of public accountability04/03/11 23:51:33> <Observer> what are those 04/03/11 23:51:47> <Observer> and are they real or preceived?04/03/11 23:51:49> <Save-WinMX> not now04/03/11 23:52:13> <Save-WinMX> first this HAS to stop04/03/11 23:52:17> <NotKM> i don't know, i just know others have said that this was not an isolated case04/03/11 23:52:27> <Observer> what others ?04/03/11 23:52:43> <Save-WinMX> come on ppl.. dont destroy it now...04/03/11 23:52:51> <Observer> and why did you not came and tell anyone at the site ?04/03/11 23:53:01> <Observer> this is a job for us all 04/03/11 23:53:08> <Observer> not just the site folks04/03/11 23:53:17> <Observer> we watch each others backs 04/03/11 23:53:53> <Save-WinMX> observer have you removed the tor ips?04/03/11 23:54:14> <Observer> not until km agress to the deal as a friend 04/03/11 23:54:19> <Save-WinMX> km?04/03/11 23:54:41> <Observer> once the tors are shifted he stops 04/03/11 23:54:49> <NotKM> as i've said, if my IP address and the tor IPs are removed i shall stop, as i have been saying from day one04/03/11 23:55:08> <Save-WinMX> come on KM this is a sign of good faith04/03/11 23:55:15> <Observer> and from day two i have beeing saying no one will give in to bullying 04/03/11 23:55:39> <Save-WinMX> dont waste what we'v reached so far04/03/11 23:55:43> <NotKM> whilst admitting that there is no reason for them to be on there?04/03/11 23:55:58> <Observer> the deals on the table km either take it or dont 04/03/11 23:56:15> <Observer> its your choice 04/03/11 23:56:32> <NotKM> you have the same choice you have had since day one, remove the entries that should not be there, or let winmx die... the choice is yours and has been all along04/03/11 23:56:44> <Observer> then i have no choice 04/03/11 23:57:14> <Observer> my thanks for your efforts save 04/03/11 23:57:21> <Save-WinMX> come on...04/03/11 23:57:26> <Save-WinMX> u must be joking..04/03/11 23:57:32> <Save-WinMX> km.. you will get removed...04/03/11 23:57:38> <Observer> he knows he will 04/03/11 23:58:40> <Observer> hes just annoyed with "peter"04/03/11 23:58:45> <Observer> nothing more 04/03/11 23:58:52> <NotKM> i have stopped in good faith expecting them to remove the entries several times, they've used up all their good faith... it will take him 10 seconds to fix the block list then i will stop but only after they have made the changes, because of them not doing it so many times before04/03/11 23:59:12> <Observer> them ?04/03/11 23:59:14> <Save-WinMX> KM.... its not about the past right now..04/03/11 23:59:18> <Observer> i,m here and now 04/03/11 23:59:18> <Save-WinMX> its about JUST NOW04/03/11 23:59:27> <Observer> you know me 04/03/11 23:59:35> <Save-WinMX> right here right now.. you and observer..04/03/11 23:59:36> <Observer> i have dealt in good faith before04/03/11 23:59:49> <Save-WinMX> and me04/03/11 23:59:51> <Save-WinMX> *lol04/03/11 23:59:55> <Observer> i meant with km 05/03/11 00:00:05> <Observer> he knows me like i know him05/03/11 00:00:27> <Observer> maybe i should go check if any wmw staff want to step in here 05/03/11 00:00:37> <Observer> that will remove the personal element05/03/11 00:01:04> <NotKM> i do know you... hence why i will wait until you actually do it before believing you05/03/11 00:01:25> <Save-WinMX> km.. is removing the tor ones first "doing it"?05/03/11 00:01:56> <Save-WinMX> as i said.. you can start the attac again if they realy dont remove you05/03/11 00:02:03> <NotKM> talking you absolutely love, but when it comes to actually doing something....05/03/11 00:02:26> <Observer> i can do for a friend 05/03/11 00:02:52> <Save-WinMX> km.. would you agree if your ip is removed first, and THEN the tor ones?05/03/11 00:02:57> <Observer> but not a man with a weapon aimed at the folks 05/03/11 00:03:22> <NotKM> well you've got 2 minutes, then i'm leaving - then if you remove them after that i shall stop whenever i notice, which might not be for a while05/03/11 00:03:41> <Save-WinMX> km.. do you agree???05/03/11 00:03:51> <Observer> take care all 05/03/11 00:04:40> <Save-WinMX> km.. please... this is not how it should end...05/03/11 00:07:18> <NotKM> checking the list, nope still on there... oh well, he knows how to stop it05/03/11 00:07:36> <NotKM> i'm off now, bbl05/03/11 00:12:01> <Save-WinMX> km....05/03/11 00:12:05> <Save-WinMX> pls check again05/03/11 00:12:14> <Save-WinMX> they should be gone now..?05/03/11 00:14:52> <Save-WinMX> ok... ill end this here.. thank you for participating.. and.... stay calm...05/03/11 00:15:05> <Save-WinMX> << over and out05/03/11 01:33:26> <NotKM> i see some of the entries have been removed, think he's going to pretend he didn't realise the other ones were tor? (despite the labels on the list he was given, and the fact that the whole section were tor...)06/03/11 16:39:11> <SaveWinMX> You can now leave the chat - currently all problems have been solved06/03/11 16:39:39> <SaveWinMX> ihr könnt den chat jetzt verlassen, alle probleme wurden bis auf weiteres behoben.06/03/11 16:39:41> <SaveWinMX> thank you06/03/11 16:39:42> <SaveWinMX> danke
04/03/11 22:10:30> <Observer> i made a temp block to stop those files being shared yes.....04/03/11 22:13:30> <NotKM> is sharing a file an attack?04/03/11 22:13:36> <Observer> its the files contents
04/03/11 22:41:08> <Observer> and you know we have a developers section04/03/11 22:41:18> <Observer> where info can be shared resonsibly04/03/11 22:41:21> <Observer> and is
Its clear that to block the files the user was in fact temporarily blocked, not as you are implying that the files themselves where blocked in any way.I repeat again WMW have not attacked the network and have been aiding and supporting users for over 5 years now, in that time its clear to most what our colours are and what the sites stands for, if the anti-wmw rabble have their way winmx itself will close before they are happy.
On the one hand you say that you support the release of the protocol in the core section
on the other hand talking about the ability to block IP's is cause for concern.
I didn't however see any comment regading what effect you think that might have or perhaps what we as a community might do in that eventuality.
I would like very much to hear them and perhaps see some discussion on the matter.
the reality of our situation is wmw help support the winmx community and have proved their commitment many many times and by successfully following the simple but well thought through plans wmw have been able to keep the community here longer than frontcode was able to
Wonders if I am seeing negativity or elitism...
therefore should the unthinkable happen they will still operate a basic blocklist of some sort.
yes I agree this could and probably should be improved by allowing caches to update their list from other caches if the date was saved of when the blocklist was current and therefore allow the most recent to overwrite older ones.
as always security comes into play though
and this could allow blocklists being shared to be hijacked by you know who...
i think perhaps it could be possible to implement some way of datestamping the blocklist
