Network Degradation

[GhostShip]

Should host/pie primarys that flood the network be added to the blocklist folks ?

I ask this as I was reading over at vladds and gems forums and zero effort is once again being made to protect the network, new users are still being asked to remove a filtering patch that protects the user and the network and replace it with a pie patch regardless of any problem, this is allowing further damage to the network and driving users away.

An alternative is to publish their IP,s on this site to shame the host/pie users into action, folks could firewall them themselves, what do you folks think ?

[*^*Åü§§ïëgïrl*^*]

*** DANGER WILL ROBINSON !!!***. Freedom of choice. Unfortunately the freedom to choose may be ill-directed from the point of view of the Pie Forum.  Through my own experience as an mx host I've discovered that a lot of pie users are ignorant to the advantages of the winmxworld patch, through no fault of their own. A lot only know of what they've been told and until the release of 3.0 I was one of them. My own research into advantages was the key to my decision to go with 3.0. Readily available information and up-front honesty is the key to conversion.. and it's going to take a long long time. I'm not sure a 'vigilante approach' would be looked upon as the only way to go... unless I've totally missed the point... (highly likely)

On top of that, Pie team are likely to look upon any action like that as 'See... we told you so.. they want to control you.... blah blah...' One such example of that is when the update bar was altered to direct users to the 3.0 patch; while the theory was good and done with the best of intentions for the network as a whole word quickly filtered through the chat rooms in 45 different languages that KM was 'hijacking users' in an attempt to 'control WinMX and the WPN'.

Ideas are great, and I wish I had some to put some forward, but be careful of those borne out of frustration.

'500 years ago everybody knew the world was flat..........'

Here's hoping everybody will know the advantages of the filtering patch long before I need a cane and teach my grandkids how to use WinMX. Because it will be still around.

[p2p rules]

It would be better if both ( or is that 3 now) teams cooperated , but I don't see that happening very soon even though you and others have tried to that.Plus you just know that they'll use that in there propaganda against us an say  something like see KM /winmxworld / winmxgroup is so evil they're blocking PIE /host file users and want to take over WinMX.
If it comes down to that , we might have to do what's best for the network,  we might have to split the network into 2, 1 WPN for PIE/host users & 1 for the winmxgroup users.Maybe if they come up with a better blocking system that they've been claiming for months to be working on then we wouldn't have to split the network into 2.

Publishing Pie/host Ip addresses won't make that much of a difference, i'm sure most of them don't even come to this site/forum.

[GhostShip]

If the pie team wish to go to the trouble of spamming 45 rooms I,m sure their own rooms are accessible to spammers also.

This shows only that they are prepared to take action to attack KM but do nothing to help the users, why does this not surprise me ?

I think the time for asking them to do the right thing has passed, they are damaging the network and losing users who as you say are ignorant of the better solution due to pies policy of trying to hijack users and keep them ignorant of the superior solution.

I think we need to offer the users a choice of whether they want to connect to pie/host flooders or not, and if not then perhaps I shall create a blocklist of primary flooders who use their file and do so, this is the same file that they offered last year and still is the minimum basic connection solution that many made themselves without all the fanfare.

I have lost count of the number of lies told by pie and am still waiting for them to explain why running their patch on one server is good for the users and where is the trojan or backdoor they claimed last year along with many other scare stories they issued.
And yes I am rather doubtful of the wisdom of waiting yet another year for them to start cleaning up their mess, a mess thats affecting all users.

Their ignorance and lies are posted everywhere, I have no fear of spammers who cannot be trusted and see no reason to help Macrovision and NetSentry demolish the WPN.

[Neutron]

I don't think it's a bad idea, a year has passed and I see no effort from their side in protecting the network. They keep coming with more misinformation, they get dll patched users off the dll patch and on theirs, as if that is supposed to help anyone with anything.
We should push pie to take more action against the flooding, that's all we've asked them to do ever since the start.

Plus you just know that they'll use that in there propaganda against us an say  something like see KM /winmxworld / winmxgroup is so evil they're blocking PIE /host file users and want to take over WinMX.

We've already heard enough of that propaganda, but you know what, I don't think anyone cares anymore, and actually, I'd LOVE to bring the pie team down with force if I could. They are destroying the network, so we need to destroy them. They can whine and complain all they want about us being so bad trying to hijack the network, we've heard it all.. no one cares. I've always said I don't want the pie team gone, I just want them to do something about the blocking. If they are blocking, they can stay, that's all I demand from them. If they don't block, they need to go, but they won't go on their own, so someone will need to make them go. Not because I want to see anyone in full control of the network, but because I want a stable fake free network. So pie needs to go. This is an excellent idea quicks...

[DarkElves]

i say yes block pie hosts that flood the network.

they are ruining our network.

as i said befor pie was good when it first came out as it was a quick fix for a mjor problem but times have changed and its just like upgrading any program or piece of hardware even..time to upgrade the network BLOCK PIE... my wittle two cents worth which isnt much but i agree ghostship i say BLOCK...

[SamSeeSam]

I don't know... But I would like some of my doubts cleared up before I say anything
Before that let me make some things clear before i ask anything:
Do I like pie ?
NO
Do I want them on winmx?
NO
Do I deny that they are lying cowards?
NO
Do I deny that their sole objective is the destruction of winmx and winmxworld
NO

Ok now I can start.
What about the users who are going to be affected?
They will have no idea why they can't connect to winmx. And when They go to vladd, then they will be told that winmx world... blah blah more lies. without telling them that they are sitting ducks for RIAA. So probably the user might just leave winmx.
I would not even mind if he just left winmx and be done with it, but he is going to tell his friends too you know, "please don't use winmx....."
It's going to start a chain reaction. In many places, i have seen, that users shift to limewire or Ares, or.... Well the same might happen here.
That is my main concern. Ah of course, if the number of users with pie is significantly less now, then maybe it's ok.

I think that the better alternative is to tell them how much better winmx world is, you know maybe by flooding the networks ourselves, like km had once demonstrated...
My Idea is, better not drag the bull to the barn, starve it, and then put the hay inside the barn. They I guess may be just waiting for us to do this. I don't want any form of resurrection of pie, not that I expect anyone here wants either.

I like this idea too you know, but it better not become a Phyrric victory for winmx and us. Pie are going to die. No questions about that. They are doing such a good job of it themselves that I guess we must not slow things down.

Cheers

[Stevi]

I will not be happy if PIE was added to the blocklist. Not because some of them are my friends, but because it will prove them right. They will be proven right because they always say "WinMxGroup is evil and will do anything to take over." and that "anything" also means by blocking the PIE team themselves. I would not let them win this.

[KM]

* KM thinks someone didn't think about the practical problem of having a few thousand (exact number depending how long they stay there for) entries to the block list...

you couldn't do it if you tried, and then all it would achieve is perhaps making them have a slightly harder time downloading, which of course they wouldn't notice because they already get thousands of fakes in their search results, a handful more results they can't download from would hardly be noticed

as for using force to take down their single cache... of course I couldn't do that but there is nothing stopping anyone else doing it... just bare in mind the users that would have problems connecting yet again, although you could argue "it keeps being shut down a few times and you have to keep updating" is a better message for them to spread about winmx than "it is full of fakes and you can't download anything" (which is what pie are telling people)

and btw, the few times you do see a pie member accidentally tell a user to block, they tell them to block pie primaries and not flooders and claim that is "effective", so they are already partly doing what you say... heh

[bughunter]

i have said all along pie have to go...............and only now do you lot see the light so to speak...........
anyone defending pie and or there actions or susgesting they should be permitted to stay should really leave winmx or alternatively fuck off to the maggots room................stupidity isnt needed in winmxworld...............
pie is a virus and those that spread it are virus spreaders and should be treated as such...........there is no fix for pie nothing you can do to it will ever work period end of story...........the only reason winmxworld even susgested last oct thru nov that pie users should use pg2 with our block list is it was better then nothing. as has been repeatidly posted the maggots are continuing with there lie denying users any information and still refusing to even mention blocking.............yet every maggot in the v channel knows as soon as that user connects with the maggot patch riaa wil be al over them flooding away...............despite wat noby and vladd say there liars always have been always will be...........self confessed liars,and they continue the lie that is pie even after the splitt lol wat split both maggot camps lie continue havin users remove the only real patch and install there virus, you can only wonder at why..........
as nobby posted pie would rather there be no winmx then one controlled by km..........so by there own admission there deliberately destroying this network..........and some of you dare to say pie should be allowed to remain...........i susgest to revue your statements very carefully...........you never know what may happin............ time has come for people to decide where they stand you either want to help winmx survive in which case your winmxworld aligned or you seek to destroy winmx so are in the pie maggot camp..............there is no middle ground,its a choice..........and as for who has control  of the wpn thats simple  km has too , he has done nothing since the crash but provide stable caches and a great patch on the other hand we have the maggots self confessed liars,there disgracefull conduct since the crash is now widely known ,we should also mention that fucktard sabre who has already used the cache he runs to attempt to dos someone.........would anyone really want these loosers to be in charge if so you must have rocks in your head.................as i have said repeatidly pie have to go ASAP...........im just glad that ppl are finally realizeing that that is the only alternative if winmx is to survive...............and as some folks kmow removing pie from winmx is dead simple..............you only have to say the word .......................

[GhostShip]

There is of course only one alternative that I can think of and thats to message the flooding primary and ask them to take action, unfortunately this is beyond our technical ability due to the fact that I know no method of extracting the username from the IP is provided in the protocol, a blocklist is the only sure and effective cure against this scourge of attacks on us.

Omega I cant understand your outlook on this matter , its rather simple to most folks , we dont want flooders continuing to damage the network and make no mistake the continual disconnections of users from chat rooms and transfers are the damage we are seeing as well as bringing many users machines to a dead halt by acting as platforms for denial of service attacks, you feel this is not "evil" as you say ?

I think you need to look at the facts and not the propaganda, I am talking about flooding primaries only, if a primary floods it is damaging the network and I do not see any reason to allow this to continue, we all protect ourselves against other organisations attacking us with firewalls etc, why should we turn a blind eye because some spammers are threatening to tell more lies they cannot back up ?

The other aspect that is not being looked into is also rather simple pie/host users are already leaving the network instead of coming to get a real patch due to the fact pie have censored the fact a real patch exists, so not only have they mislead the users in 90% of cases they are also the ones who connected the users not protected, I am merely suggesting a clean up, you folks can do your bit with this too , get pie folks blocking the flooders and spread the word of how to protect the network, every flooder blocked is a victory for us all and we must not be diverted from facts into the land of BS that pie live in, blocking is not illegal nor is p2p and no law exists to say otherwise, ask them yourselves folks they cannot name any law that says blocking is illegal, what you will hear them trot out is talk about some supporting evidence used in The US Grokster case that applied to commercial p2p developers who take active steps to encourage infringement of copyright files, no one here encourages such activity nor does a US judgement apply outside of the US and we do not own the winmx software so on all counts its a red herring, and irrelevant.

Lets face this cold hard fact for over a year we have all had our bandwidth stolen from us and all been at least attacked by the flooders at least 20 times while searching for freeware and user provided content, in this time pie have promised to do certain things, none of those things has transpired, no new client, no solution to the flooding and to make matters worse are now using a patch that should one cache fail will prevent any users on the host file connecting, sabre himself calls this major damage and yet this is all his work, can we afford to sit by and watch more of this idiots endless speeches that show he has no solutions ?

All this is while the companies behind the flooding continue their work, and while they remain effective get paid millions to do so, you have all been robbed by users on a host file and its no longer polite to steal bandwidth from the rest of us in the shape of hosting flooders, its that simple.

Protect the network, and protect yourselves, I for one will not wait another year while the brain dead figure out that helping macrovision/netsentry steal my bandwidth attack me and smash the WPN in is wrong.


 

[7]

Should host/pie primarys that flood the network be added to the blocklist folks ?

No.  I don't see what you would achieve by doing this.  Users already have choices for whether they want to actively block or not, I do not believe they need it forcing on them, and believe that if things were to go this route then it'd cause a lot of shit.

Anyone who uses the WMG DLL is probably already doing about the best they can, I think, to be rid of the effects of the media company fakers.  I don't see what it would achieve to block users who don't happen to use the DLL.  Your outbound search queries are still going to go out to all primaries irrespective of the patch they use and those primaries will still respond with search results in the form of inbound UDP datagrams.  Your client would still have to manage the influx of that UDP to weed out the fakes whether you blocked non-WMG DLL users or not.  If you want to isolate the WMG patch from all others on the network then I believe you would have to alter the protocol enough so that any communications WMG DLL user's clients have with other peers are distinguished from the official protocol.  I think this would be a bad idea.  You may as well split completely from the network by redifining the WPNP in order to create an alternative WPN consisting only of WMG DLL users.

Anyway, those are only a few points that have come to mind in the few moments I've considered this (since I opened this thread just now).  I believe it would be likely a whole host of other uncool things would arise if one were to take into account all other aspects of client interaction on the WPN.  In my opinion this move doesn't really bare thinking about.

By all means create an alternative, insulated, new WPN and see how users take to that, but please don't consider seriously forcing user's hands who are active on the current network.  My opinion is that at present there is nothing at all bad enough happening to warrant such a move.

[GhostShip]

I feel you have missed the most important aspect of my post 7 , primaries that are flooding the wpn are the intended targets of my idea, the patch type is not important as long as they block the flooders from the network, of course this is going to be an annoyance to some people but to continue doing nothing and losing users is the alternative, do we let the patient bleed to death while we argue over whether to apply stitches or not ?

If you can find a way to comunicate to the users hosting the flooding then I am all ears, doing nothing for another year is not something I am comfortable with.

It is entirely possible to split the network and simple enough to do but it would mean starting it from scratch for any seperate net, no one I have spoken to is in a rush to do this as we are looking at losing a major portion of users in the short term, this then leaves the alternative, more effort to remove the problem on this net, this whole thread was spawned after reading on the other site yet another user being told to replace a wmg patch with a host file patch and not a word was said of blocking or protecting the rest of us.
Could I direct anyone who is not happy about this idea into being more active in halting the networks destruction by making the importance of protection known, after all as posted above pie are fully prepared to spam 45 rooms to attack KM but have made no effort to stop the denial of service attacks their patch users are taking part in.

Doing nothing is not really an option, flooding has dramatically increased due to other networks closing and freeing up more servers to pound us, unless we want to join them action by all is required, there is no point in shooting the messenger.

[Bearded Blunder]

I'm not sure adding these to a blocklist would have any useful effect whatsoever, exactly what would be achieved?

They aren't using the blocklist by definition (or they wouldn't be flooding), it wouldn't block them connecting, would have no effect on that even run on the caches we use, we don't control the one they connect using..

In fact from my less than perfect understanding of how winmx works, the only result would be to cut blocking pie primaries from connecting to them..

Anyone care to take bets that pie wouldn't use this as an excuse to start advising ppl not to use our blocklist AT ALL?  The situation could very well be made worse as other pie primaries cease to even partially block..

If it were possible splitting the network would be more useful, I can't see that blocking these primaries would isolate them effectively, as long as they connect to the same WPN as us, floods will get routed round & still be with us.

If something drastic must be done (a moot point) a clean break would do more good, people would gravitate to the useable network & it's also moot how long the pie half would last without being shored up by blocking primaries from the dll net, I suspect making a secondary would rapidly become very difficult & even primaries would be unstable.. if separated, how long before the pie half crashes?

Adding these to the blocklist won't leave them with a yellow light, & anything that doesn't isn't going to make them do something about it.

[7]

I feel you have missed the most important aspect of my post 7 , primaries that are flooding the wpn are the intended targets of my idea, the patch type is not important as long as they block the flooders from the network, of course this is going to be an annoyance to some people but to continue doing nothing and losing users is the alternative, do we let the patient bleed to death while we argue over whether to apply stitches or not ?

Unprotected primaries will still flood user's connections even if you block them at the DLL as the the user would still have to deal with the influx of inbound UDP.  What do you achieve by blocking non-protected primaries?  The DLL already clears out the fakes and prevents media companies connecting for those that use it.  Any user on the receiving end of all those fakes unprotected primaries spew out have only themselves to blame (this assumes they are at least aware that they CAN block using the WMG DLL) if their search results are flooded with fakes.  They can take appropriate action themselves if they want to prevent that from occurring by switching to the WMG DLL.

About the network 'bleeding to death', to paraphrase you there;  The network is old.  It cannot compete too well these days with the newer protocols out there and so I think it's entirely probable a long slow decline in the population occurs as users move elsewhere.  With regards fakes exacerbating that problem, sure, it wouldn't surprise me at all to find users who have moved elsewhere due to their poor experience with WinMX due to their difficulty in downloading content.  At least a part of the problem here could well be down to them simply not being aware of the intricacies of alternative connection solutions (lol) that have abilities to clear up this problem in particular.  If there's any truth in that then I'd put that down to a simple lack of public knowledge that other methods exist and that there are differences in how they operate.

If you can find a way to comunicate to the users hosting the flooding then I am all ears, doing nothing for another year is not something I am comfortable with.

Well, you could 'advertise' in some way, though I'm wary as to what effect that might have on users if they have things pushed in their face (not saying it's not possible, though I'd be careful about how I were to go about it if such a thing was deemed necessary).

"Doing nothing for another year" seems an odd thing to say?  With the arrival of the 3.0 DLL I'd say a lot has happened in the year.  I guess you're referring to the inaction of 'the others' here.  Really, personally I don't see 'them' as a problem worth too much consideration given the choice users now have in being able to do something about the media company's companies activities.  If they want to continue on with a host file fix to the connection problem, so be it, though I would prefer to see them do a lot more to address the biggest issues.  I can't force them though, I guess nobody can; they have to make their own decisions based on their own thoughts on what they consider the most appropriate course of action (which may just be inaction).

It is entirely possible to split the network and simple enough to do but it would mean starting it from scratch for any seperate net, no one I have spoken to is in a rush to do this as we are looking at losing a major portion of users in the short term, this then leaves the alternative, more effort to remove the problem on this net, this whole thread was spawned after reading on the other site yet another user being told to replace a wmg patch with a host file patch and not a word was said of blocking or protecting the rest of us.

Well it's unfortunate but what can anyone do?  We all have our own unique opinions on what we consider best.  At least some of their opinions obviously differ.  I hope for their sake they're correct in their thinking for the sake of those they're leading though I personally beg to differ in a big way.  Little I can do about that though.  Either way truth will play out eventually.

Could I direct anyone who is not happy about this idea into being more active in halting the networks destruction by making the importance of protection known, after all as posted above pie are fully prepared to spam 45 rooms to attack KM but have made no effort to stop the denial of service attacks their patch users are taking part in.

Doing nothing is not really an option, flooding has dramatically increased due to other networks closing and freeing up more servers to pound us, unless we want to join them action by all is required, there is no point in shooting the messenger.

I don't know, Quicks, all seems a bit sensationalist to me much of what you're saying.  I'll have to admit to being unaware really of what the core problems you're seeing are.

[SamSeeSam]

(neutron)We've already heard enough of that propaganda

Well yes all of us have. But has that pie primary heard. His only concern is whether he can download or not. He does not care much for a fight between us or them If he finds winmx bad, then he will move to ares or limewire. I might seem to someone like I'm stabbing behind your back. But I am just trying to see from the point of view of a normal user.

(omega)I will not be happy if PIE was added to the blocklist. Not because some of them are my friends, but because it will prove them right. They will be proven right because they always say "WinMxGroup is evil and will do anything to take over." and that "anything" also means by blocking the PIE team themselves. I would not let them win this.

Yeah I second that too

The other aspect that is not being looked into is also rather simple pie/host users are already leaving the network instead of coming to get a real patch due to the fact pie have censored the fact a real patch exists,

So if you start blocking them are they going to come to winmxgroup? They will first go to pie who will fill them up with crap which will translate into fury when they come into the winmxworld room.

Also, winmx is not our's that one can say, I don't want you to connect cause you are not using a patch that blocks (also I will point out that only Km's patch does that.) I feel this thing is no different from that childp... thread that was there . Well, you simply can't attack users because they don't do what you want to or do not. Kick users for having childp... is bad but blocking them for not using winmxworld patch is not. I will be happy if someone can differenciate between the tow, and clear if what he feels is (my) misconception.

If you block them none will come back. If they get sick of fake files, atleast some of them will comeback...

Cheers

[GhostShip]

I wish you would read my posts again Sam, its clear in the reply I gave to Omega that this suggested list is to block unprotected primaries who flood the WPN, where does that turn into an "us and them fight" ?

Being a "sensationalist" is making statements that don't pass muster in my opinion 7, the fact is recently I have seen a dramatic increase in flooders trying to attack the networks users, instead of 3 flooders at a time I'm watching up to 10 hit folks connections, that's a 3 times increase in their activity, just because we are not seeing the results of this stepped up campaign by using the winmxgroup patch it is taking a toll on host file users and random secondary disconnections.

I have conferred with others monitoring as you yourself do and it seems to me that now is not the time for me to be telling folks to do nothing and allowing these companies to continue their tactics, tactics that are being allowed to continue by unprotected primaries either on purpose as in the case of many pie users or plain ignorance brought about by a refusal to inform new users at connection time, once again today in pie rooms we are still seeing the same activity based solely on removing a working protective patch for what  I can only describe as a pile of junk patch, no mention was made of protection, how long are you all prepared to wait before its as clear to you as it is to me that the network is losing users and getting a bad reputation from those who by no fault of their own are mislead into thinking the fakes and disruption is normal for winmx ?

Pie have been operating a campaign to undermine the blocklist for months Bearded, you need only go to gems site to read lies told by Sabre about innocent folks being blocked and read Sub Human bobs comments on vladds about how all the flooders are already on certain bloclists at blutak so you don't need the wmw list, he seems totally ignorant of how those numbers reach them, magic eh Bob ?

Due to technical concerns as KM pointed out its not possible to use the WMG patch to block these folks from connecting to any of the clean primaries with their poison , but I was thinking of another blocklist for PG that I could make with the worst of the unprotected users who host the majority of the flooders singled out, it would then be up to the users if they wanted to block these people, a choice that they are not giving anyone else by effectively pissing in our drinking water. 

If the flooders cannot access the network then it wont matter what patch is used, while the unprotected are not being given the information on how to keep the rest of us safe as well as themselves the network will only shrink and I am starting to see that now with host file users.

I am fully aware many don't agree or see the reason for making a fuss about a problem that's not directly affecting us, I however have no wish for any users to leave our network, each one lost is a victory for our enemies, I can however see no other solutions that are not going to lead to the slow death of the network if we just sit around doing nothing as is being hinted at.

Anyway I am not in charge of any one else here, this is my own personal suggestion and its been good many are coming to post and say what direction we should endeavour to move in, while I do feel more should be done I have always followed the wise advice of many of the posters here, and do not intend to work against the consensus, so please post your opinions folks if you haven't already, your views will be listened to and debated I hope with as much vigour as mine have attracted.

[SamSeeSam]

"I wish you would read my posts again Sam, its clear in the reply I gave to Omega that this suggested list is to block unprotected primaries who flood the WPN, where does that turn into an "us and them fight" ?"

Please understand that I am not saying that it is an us and them them fight, but that is what the picture will seem to a complete outsider.
So ar there has been no fight... yes they have attacked Km's caches, the site, everything with winmxgroup or dll on it. But I fear this will turn it into one, and a very ugly one too.
Please for one second put yourself looking into winmx as a totally new user, with some users blocking some others. it will seem at first instance that there is a fight. I fully know that neither you or anyone here will ever be the one to start a fight. But that is what it will seem to be like.

I am perparing to bet that they are only waiting for this thread to conclude in favour of blocking and then running around telling the whole world about it.

Ok yes, I also feel like blocking them out. I declare that. But I don't like innocent users to suffer.
Yes yes and yes pie have made them suffer, suffer for no reason, but them blocking does not seem to me a way to ease their suffering. How is that going to help those users who are being blocked. We might have a better time, but they will never get a chance again...

I suggest we take a poll of the people who want to, do not want to and who do not want to do anything with respect to blocking.
Mind you, blocking means (in his context) blocking pie users, NOT fake files. That way, they can do it without the need for posting.

I also respect the fact that you are willing to do things against your wish if others are for it. It is something that is not commonly found... Also something that I always keep in mind too. If more people say yes to blocking, then I shall have no reason to oppose.

Cheers

[p2p rules]

How about Km's sending  a 1 line message as the 1st results that they see in the search results & chatroom list windows asking primary PIE /host file users to either start using PG2 with the WMW blocklist or use the Winmxgroup patch to block the cartels from attacking the network.

[Bearded Blunder]

Leaving aside the accusations that KM was flooding this would cause for the moment..

How could he ensure it was the FIRST result?  You can sort those results by many criteria, alphabetical, REVERSE alphabetical, bitrate, filesize, just about anything, mine's usually sorted by reverse filesize with available files on top.. how does he make his result turn up first in my search, someone with a at the top, someone with z at the top.. all at once?