Is winmx dying ?

[Pri]

To be honest I'd say that Bittorrent is way past a fad. It keeps evolving and being updated while Kazaa, Napster and WinMX were taken down by the RIAA. Bittorrent is not like that. It is designed so that the creators of the clients stand separate to the clients usage as a copyright infringing file sharing platform. This fundamental difference is what secures Bittorrents legacy.

If WinMX ever gets popular again we will get C&D's and we will not be able to keep the network going. We have to decentralise it and why reinvent the wheel when the Bittorrent protocol and working clients are open source. All we need to do is put a WinMX chat in it and we're done here. Community saved. I think what you want ghost is unfeasible, people do not share your view about file delivery they want speed first and foremost. If you looked around the rooms these days quite a lot of people are using chat clients that offer auto-entry, auto-message on entry and clickable URL links. They have already abandoned the WinMX client for 3 cheap features that's how much the client is worth these days.

As I said at the start, making a new client that is a clone of WinMX won't change anything. We need to think outside the box. We can't save the downloading we need to focus on how to bring the WinMX Chat experience to other platforms. Ares, Bittorrent you name it. Once the community is grown we can start to investigate how to do our own protocol and sharing. The best part about this idea is its the easiest. We already have open source chat clients like RoboMX which have everything (and then some) that we need to begin.

Above you mentioned how some folks here moaning have already left WinMX and sold there souls etc.  I myself run a room on WinMX where we have 95% WinMX clients and they are actually sharing files and we regularly have 75 users (62 as of this posting) we have chat 24.7 my room is doing pretty great but I would be ignorant if I didn't see what is happening elsewhere, every time I refresh my channel list the amount of rooms listed shrinks and the amount of users in the rooms displayed is similarly small in number. I dunno why I'm posting this really we have a lack of coders anyway and the ones we do have cant help because of life commitments and the ones who can help are ostracised from the discussions here or to busy with their own WinMX related projects deciding the future for a community that isn't given an importunity to voice their opinion on what they would like to happen. This website is a front for WinMX discussion but we aren't really getting much done. I think I'm going to look in to this chat idea and perhaps take one of the open source BT clients and integrate WinMX chat in to that. It's something at-least.

[Rav]

I have to agree with pri on everything he said, having a bit torrent protocol with winmx chat experience would be great...

This network is not going far with files, very slow downloads, not many files ether.. if your looking for rare things u cant find much on winmx these days..

Think realistically winmx will die unless something major happens to it. a big over haul, a better user interface, we are using software that is years old lol.. we need to start looking at every option possible to keep this network alive.

bit torrent is the future as of now, p2p clients will just die, torrents are so much better, the speeds, the files themselves.. and no matter what u download u can get a MPAA letter or whatever type of letter, its your CHOICE to download illegal files and u need to understand the risks, even if winmx is a safe network with low users. since it has low users it will keep going down.. any file u download has its risks, and saying that winmx is a safe heaven for files i think is just BOGUS.

downloading in general is not a safe thing to do if u plan on downloading copyrighted files. if you think downloading from winmx is gonna help you, your defiantly wrong.. isp,s  do deep packet inspection and they can tell what u download so anything u do is not safe, also that depends on the isp i believe.

People want quick downloads, fast speeds, better user interface, lets get this network onto something bigger and better, "OUT WITH THE OLD IN WITH THE NEW" and embrace the technology we have today.. i hope that someone makes a bit torrent client with winmx chat built in.. would be amazing and such a great idea..

[GhostShip]

I think its pretty clear those pushing for this project have not thought through sufficiently some of the key concepts and other here are just repeating comments out of ignorance. If Pri is unable to understand that WinMX is already decentralised and thus virtually impossible to close down what chance does he have of building a new sharing system based on bit torrent that isn't despite talk of magnet links available to operate completely trackerless.  

See here for info on such topics

http://torrentfreak.com/bittorrents-future-dht-pex-and-magnet-links-explained-091120/

Bit torrent is a simple technology and works well however its also a security less protocol and thus anything built on it is by definition insecure, nothing said so far addresses this key point and the centralised operation it requires to stay alive, starting with firstly obtaining the data (magnet/ torrent) from a website and then having to grab data from yet another centralised src (a tracker) and all the while displaying your IP to all others in the swarm and thus rendering all those in the swarm liable for copyright infringement claims, downloading only on the other hand using WinMX allows for no such claims and no such claims have ever been attempted by the cartel against downloaders, only uploaders.

Heres what I see is going to happen, someone is going to try to create this monster and then that's it dead in the water because non of those suggesting this have any ideas or skills to create any improvements this is my sole prediction on this, I truly believe that if folks want to use torrents and chat clients rather than WPN clients then they are the rot they are complaining about.

Rav:
What I call bogus is the implication your making Rav that anyone has been sued or harassed for using WinMX in the past 5 years, any proof of such a claim ?
I wont hold my breath. I do understand the frustration many of you have with hearing others boast about super fast downloads using bit torrent all the while forgetting the fact that any p2p client is able to go just as fast as any other, its easy when sources are plentiful as anyone who has had 2 or 3 sources will attest to, whats the difference ? Users folks we have all taken WinMX for granted and sat on our laurels for some time now, the folks behind bit torrent and the small improvements they are making to try to make it decentralised are eager and positive they see a goal and are going for it , we as a community on the other hand have not reached such a peak of excitement for some time now and thus as always the grass truly does look good and green elsewhere, the truth is it isn't and it will never be, we have the zero of zero hack and bit torrent folks suffer the leech client that folks wont talk a lot about but we all know exists as it was created for a university project and publicised, we are already decentralised, bit torrent client builders are trying hard to reach this stage, our communications are ignored by most ISP companies and WinMX came top of a  list of "invisible" protocols two years ago as our network is not big enough for anyone to take the considerable time to decrypt our communications, our size is often our best defence so I say to you honestly if your unsure about what WinMX is and feel your missing out then go run a torrent client but when you get a nasty-gram remember who told you it would arrive and who wont be there to support you legally and technically when it comes to being extorted for filesharing.

 

I dunno why I'm posting this really we have a lack of coders anyway and the ones we do have cant help because of life commitments and the ones who can help are ostracised from the discussions here or to busy with their own WinMX related projects deciding the future for a community that isn't given an importunity to voice their opinion on what they would like to happen. This website is a front for WinMX discussion but we aren't really getting much done.

Pri : I take exception to your sly dig at what we do here, this is a well established site and I wont suffer user abusers to further have the chance to attack folks yet again,  I feel what your implying with such comments is simply to helping to undermine both trust in us as a group and has the unfortunate side effect of further fragmenting the community.
If you wish to build such a beast go for it, I wont complain if your able to do something that whilst I dont believe has a real future it is something and something is always better than nothing, but please dont feel you have to take cheap pot shots at those of us who are not taking the quick route to torrents and are already working to build WinMX up as a peer to peer network as its always been, we can disagree without the snide remarks I feel.

To the rest of you I suggest a lot of reading about network protocols and learning the basics of network types as it really is disheartening to hear folks discuss WinMX and yet not know its proprietary encrypted  protocol is the whole reason we have been able to survive thus far and with such a good record of security.


PS :Btw folks I have to work weeks days and making your comments so long means I have to type a long reply and thus less time is left for coding so if you can get to the point speedily and argue amongst yourselves if you can as I really begrudge having to waste 2 or three hours of coding time better spent on digging us out of a hole rather than creating another.

[Pri]

I think its pretty clear those pushing for this project have not thought through sufficiently some of the key concepts and other here are just repeating comments out of ignorance. If Pri is unable to understand that WinMX is already decentralised

No cache servers = No WinMX.

Soon as WinMX gets popular C&D's will be sent to us peer cache operators and that will be the end of MX (again). Without the peer caches to let new peers in to the network it is nothing. The network is not self sustaining. At the moment the patch points to DNS servers which in turn list different peer caches but if those DNS servers get taken down we would require a new patch to list new DNS servers and this will fragment the network even more. I shouldn't have to inform you about the basics ghost.

But look you don't want me to post about this stuff so I won't post anymore about it. But I had to reply to that snippet above.

[Stevi]

I have refrained from posting until now, because I am not a programmer.

Isn't it possible to combine the benefits of both torrent and winmx? Maybe a new downloads system, a combination between WinMX's shared files library, and torrent's trackers/magnets.

I would like to learn how to program. Now might be a great time to start. I would like to know what language this new client would be written in, so I am using the correct language and it wont need to be rewritten once I am done.

[']['affy]

your probably looking at c++ and best looking at network structures omega

[Blitzen]

Although it may be a fact that there has been no reported users of winmx receiving a letter regarding filesharing/copy right infringement the only reason for that is winmx user base is so small and falling that it does not even register on the radar, so sure as it did like the days before it was closed down before, i have no doubt it would be closed down again. I do not think winmx is more secure than torrents indeed sharing copy right material in any way is a risk for those who do it.

A clone winmx client may be taken up by the die hard winmxers but i doubt it is going to attract new users unless it has some ways of downloading files faster/easier than the current system. It has been a good while now that Ghostship has been saying he is himself developing a new winmx client i can only assume work and life commitments are delaying it coming to fruit for him. I just hope as this seems to be the only project going to bring a new client to winmx that there is some users around to use it.

*EDIT just wanted to add that many rooms just within that last 6 months have seen nearly a 50% drop in users in their rooms thats an indication of the rapid decline, yes there maybe one or two rooms doing ok but in general majority are not.

[GhostShip]

Pri you,ll be pleased to learn that we are able to offer a self connecting tool should the cartel launch an all out attack, this removes the need for a peer cache, you,ll note that in support of this the community patch is also able to switch locations pretty fast to somewhere of our choosing to get a blocklist, its something we have been holding in reserve and btw operating a peer cache involves no legal liability at all, the law is 100% clear on this point atm I say "atm" as life is subject to changes but we have tried to sneak a few aces up our sleeves.

I

shouldn't have to inform you about the basics ghost.

I,m surprised you havent yet investigated the patch ini file and what it contains  , look at the long game Pri and have some faith.

If I follow your definition of decentralised then there is no such network as a decentralised one as all networks have to have node discovery however such things are not illegal only activities related to uploading copyright files could be seen as so and the peer cache has nothing to do with the users operations after the first minute, I do feel your trying to mislead folks , winmx is decentralised and I,m dismayed your not aware of its common definition as such.

Blitzen it may be hard for you to undersatnd that a single user who is not great at writing code can stay the course and deliver on a promise I have made no secret that I have been working on a client for over a year but unlike anyone else I have something to show for that year in terms of an application thats half completed, I cant speak for any of the other folks working on their clients but I take their word for it that they too are building something, like it or lump it coding is not an easy task and your comment trivialises it so I challenge you that if you think I,m slow you get to work and deliver something, like I said above taking pot shots is easy, doing the work takes commitment.

[Blitzen]

I do not understand why you think people are here taking pot shots when it only appears that people are expressing their opinions and ideas, and then for you to issue challenges just simply seems you take things regarding winmx personally but as there is supposedly no actual ownership of winmx why would you be like that......

When something at home  like  say a TV is dated you replace it with something new and modern that's all that is being discussed here but rather it is about winmx and a replacement client. Reading back i cannot help but feel its Ghostships way or no way and maybe just maybe this is why to date and probably until the last winmxer user leaves there is no winmx replacement client.

[White Stripes]

i hope that someone makes a bit torrent client with winmx chat built in.. would be amazing and such a great idea..

just as long as the chat side cant affect the transfer side in any way shape or form...  ok.... but im not getting cussed at or blocked or banned or ... you get the idea... cos of some ass with an ego problem over BT... already happened one time too many on MX...

i dont really think that idea will fly too well with the current BT users that dont even know what winmx is either...

when I,m trying to track down rare and obscure content,

soulseek... (they know what FLAC is)... but it still has the same annoying ban/block 'ego' problem that any p2p w/chat does...

but if you want some old program or src for something you can forget it,

http://oldversion.com http://oldapps.com http://sourceforge.net http://abandonia.com (google also helps)

It seems a lot of folks posting in this topic are folks who have already traded in their freedom for the insecurity of private or public torrent sites and this is a great shame

tcpview and... theres the IPs.... (doesnt take a rocket scientist) what is this 'freedom' of which you speak? freedom is not being constrained to one client on one 'closed loop' system.... even if clone clients are in the works as others have already said... if winmx somehow gets popular again the legal threats will (after all... it only took one C&D to effectively start winmx on its downward spiral) come in.... and the hacks... oh the hacks... how many holes are there in the main client? how many have been found? how many havent? how many fixes would be needed to be done to the protocol before winmx isnt even compatible with winmx....

'self fullfilling prophecy' or not... even if nothing had ever been posted here on this subject it would still be happening...

now... having said all that... as the song says 'dont fear the reaper' .... have fun with whats left of MX... and if something good happenes then enjoy..... but i dont advise holding ones breath or praying for miracles....

[White Stripes]

Reading back i cannot help but feel its Ghostships way or no way

i know somehow im going to regret posting this.... but you would be surprised (or possibly not) at how many share that view... most of those who do have either gone idle... to other projects... or... in extream cases (tho granted justifiably) banned from wmw...

[wonderer]

Well, it is just easy, since Ghostship is most likely the first who will come out with a new client, It will be Ghostships way untill someone else shows us a different, working, client.
It is about the same as with the chatservers, we have severs of several brands and all have plus and minus points. None of them is perfect and covers all users needs.
Most important for now is, we get a new client with the same funtionality as WinMx. The looks of it is of minor importance.
At least we will have a platform to start from building something that will serve most needs. It is simply impossible to satisfy everyone.

In the meantime we will be able to use the old reliable WinMx, versions 3.53 and 3.54 beta 4 into eternity.

And thinking about bandwidth, how long is it ago we were pleased with 8k/s up and 16k/s down. that old "stupid" WinMx still can handle todays speeds

[bu44er]

Reading back i cannot help but feel its Ghostships way or no way and maybe just maybe this is why to date and probably until the last winmxer user leaves there is no winmx replacement client.

The Winmx Network and community as been like this for a whole lot of time now. Everytime someone says something that is not agreed or something that is not liked by certain individuals, things get said that are classed as challanges.

What I do not understand is, whenever something needs doing no one shows their face. When everything is ok, people wan't to help all of the time. In the past people have put stupid amounts of time into the WPN and made this Network work for all of us. What did these people get, NOTHING. As far as i can read KM left because of the drama. There have been many other people who have helped out dramatically and they have now left because of guess what, DRAMA.

Now here is a suggestion, let's work together get some ideas down and move forward. If we can't work together to move forward, then there is no community. If there is no community, there is no WinMx.

[Joshua203]

same old story, people think out loud and get labeled for taking potshots, being ignorant or not so smart, i for one loved the BT operation description because it was understandable to just about anyone (even if it was not so pro mx)

personally i m not for a completely new client because i dont think we can do better (think of the lack in skills and coders), on top of that i must admit i ll start believing when i see a new client

i think we need a rise in user numbers (we all agree on that i hope) and we need something that would "regulate" the japanese userbase size (mostly because of non readable/renamed files and the use of the many hacks)

i could ramble on longer but that would mean i would start making real potshots (out of honesty) so i ll stop here, please keep in mind this was not meant to offend anyone!!!

[]-[êll.Ôñ.ËÀR'][']-[.]

I don't see much point to continue in this discussion as it only ever ends one way ..... if your not a coder then you don't know shit and if you don't agree then you don't know shit so shut up, I don't see the point in creating virtually whats there already when its not what people want... it might suit the few but the many have voiced there opinion by using there feet & letting there walking do the talking.

The point by Ghostship about having to pay for a vpn for security on torrents is false as there are plenty of free & even open source vpn out there for people to choose from.

As i said though not much point in going on as contributing years of service/help to winmx counts for nothing because if you cant code & don't share the same opinions of a select few then your opinions just ain't worth jack.

[Stevi]

I am going to lock this topic for a few reasons.

1. Everyone needs to calm down. There are things being said in this thread that may upset many others.
2. We have had this discussion before, and it has turned out the same way.
3. People need to come together on this, and not be separate.
4. Everyone is willing to post about something, but when people are needed, they go and sit in the shadows.

I know nothing about programming, and you dont need to, to help out on a project like this. I am willing to learn programming, it might take a while, but at least I am doing something. A few are talking about how this is Ghostships way, yet will not get involved. If you do not like how things are going, step in and do something rather then sit on the sidelines and talk about it. The first part of this thread was used to gather information about possible implementations to the new client. The second half has turned away from that and became more of a battle between users on knowledge. For us to be a community we must work together, and seeing posts like this drive the community further and further apart.

WinMX may be dying for some, but I mention WinMX to just about everyone I know. They come back and tell me that they love the program and will continue to use it. I am wondering how much WinMX is being put out there by word of mouth. Yes it is slower, but should we sacrifice quality for speed?

So lets stop all this bickering between us here on the site, and do something about it!!!!

[GhostShip]

Ghostship is a name I use here what I say here is what I truly believe, I,m not a magician or a sage but a WinMX supporter one of many who use this site.

I along with others built this site to act as an friendly ear and place of help to the winmx community and only the winmx community, we dont have tutorials on anything that isnt to do with winmx, we support winmx and its users thus by definition we are unlikely to accept that a perfectly fine network should be spoken about badly by those who dont support it.

I havent refused to listen to anyone and there's no real reason why you should take your cues from me if you feel differently to how I do, please never forget this as I never do, Omega is quite right to point out that we need to take a step back from the direction this topic is heading, are we all rightly concerned about the future and are we all simply looking for a solution ?

Those questions are of course rhetorical, I know you all want to see some action from someone or something but it wont happen unless we all discuss rationally why our ideas are better than others and what we personally are going to do to help bring that idea to a wider audience as if you don't have the courage of your convictions and beliefs how can you expect others to follow your lead ?

Pri stated above he is going to grab some open src and make something he believes folks will want to use, I say that's great and he should do that because only by doing so will we gain experience and an improved perspective for the next hurdle and the next hurdle after that, every day we are here we are winning a battle, I,m not the enemy and taking pot shots at me may make you feel better but its not achieving anything really, if you want to get involved or organised then please with my blessing do so I don't run winmx , I have however listened I have stated my own opinion and I wish you all luck in your efforts , however atm my path is not the one you are selecting and all I ask is that you respect my position as I respect yours, if you feel marginalised my apologies, its my aim to include as many folks as I can in any activities and try to keep the core community in place until we have a future, what that is no one can predict but I do know we need to work as a united group even if its on different projects as otherwise we are merely spreading the seeds of our own demise.

The short version of this is lets not bicker when what we really all want is simply the same thing, improvements and soon, there is nothing to fight over in my book.

[bu44er]

I agree with that Ghost, I actually think that's the best thing that as been said so far.

[FM Refugee]

...after reading this discussion (and, I have to regrettably admit, getting thoroughly confused by it!), I have to ask this apparently related question:

...The following message got posted about three hours ago in one of the chat rooms, repeated five times:

"08:38  »-«¦»-«   [W/¥\W]tig »-«¦»-«  we at winmxworld.com are closing down winmx and replacing it with a new program so you either switch over or can f*uck off "

 

...what the hell was this all about??...or someone's idea of a joke??...

[White Stripes]

its someones idea of a joke... yes... dont worry...