The Way Ahead

[GhostShip]

Folks we have reached a kind of impasse, we wish to move the community forward but we dont feel we should do this alone.

Two distinct sides have been taken over many matters and many months have been spend wasting time and marginalising those who actually make things happen in the winmx sphere, and generally wasting each others time in fighting and throwing mud at each other for one reason or another.

We want that to change and this change can only be brought about by a united front and effort to improve matters for us all, what I propose is simple, a new all encompassing committee not run by either faction that can unite all sides under an umbrella commitee to allow for the helpful and free exchange of information and direct plans in development, blocking support, public information and emergency planning in an open and democratic fashion.

Heres your chance to have your say regarding the future, please all respect each others opinions and refrain from posts of an insulting nature - Thank you all.

[Josh]

I choose the last one because i have no idea what your talking about. Im so tired i cant think.

[rhymfun]

United v stand divided you sleep after you fall.

[QUEEN]

All together, that's the way ......   

[p2p rules]

Yes I would like to see a unified effort

[Stevi]

As one we are stronger

which means we can do things better and faster to improve the network.

[ñòóKýçrÕôK]

Folks we have reached a kind of impasse, we wish to move the community forward but we dont feel we should do this alone.

Two distinct sides have been taken over many matters and many months have been spend wasting time and marginalising those who actually make things happen in the winmx sphere, and generally wasting each others time in fighting and throwing mud at each other for one reason or another.

We want that to change and this change can only be brought about by a united front and effort to improve matters for us all, what I propose is simple, a new all encompassing committee not run by either faction that can unite all sides under an umbrella commitee to allow for the helpful and free exchange of information and direct plans in development, blocking support, public information and emergency planning in an open and democratic fashion.

Heres your chance to have your say regarding the future, please all respect each others opinions and refrain from posts of an insulting nature - Thank you all.

You asked me to view this post and I have, am, and will continue to. I preached for a long time on Vladd's site that both sides should stop argueing and try to work together, if nothing else, at least on the things they could agree on. Obviously even that was impossible. I waited some time before joining this site after joining that site for the soul purpose that I felt both sides might take it I was trying to play both sides up the middle. Which I can assure you I am not.
In our chatroom on MX I have "watched" (in pictures, and actions towards individuals who have come and gone in there, and generally just the person she has become) a 13 yr old girl grow to a be a beautiful and fine woman now and I view her as my family and would protect her as if she were a daughter if at all possible. Also in that room I view most the regs who have moved on now as family. Some are still coming home every night and allowing me into their lives. Please believe I mean it when I say for 7yrs WinMX has been my second home.
When I was growing up I was always taught to stand with the good guys against the bad guys. In this fight is not easy because even the good guys are against the good guys and it is tearing WinMX apart while the bad guys (you all know who the bad guys really are) sit back and laugh at a communitty allowing itself to be torn apart by the very people who are also trying to save it.
Also as a boy growing up I was raised that if I had to stand alone for the good fight then so be it. At least when it was done I stood up for what I believed and regardless the outcome I tried.
If winmxworld can somehow come together with the pie team and fight the good fight I'm all for it. If for whatever reason that cannot happen and pie team and winmxworld cannot work together AT LEAST on the things they can agree on then I will stand behind both as if I were backing 2 best friends dukin it out with each other. When it's all said and done, both will have a good friend still telling both of them that it was still all good. You want common sence you got it.
I rely on both teams for guidence. I know so many others do also. Yall work on it, think on it, do whatever. In the end you'll both still say you fought the good fight and be right.

[Josh]

This is what needs to be done.

1. Get Everyone Over to DLL Patch
2. Eliminate Fake Files Perminately
3. Make Network Bigger




Those are the perfect 3 steps.

[KM]

why even bother? quite simply people can do what they want... if certain people want to harm the network, they will continue to do so

winmx needs caches, i will host caches, winmx needs a patch, i made a patch... if it needs doing then i do it, for the simple fact that i want to, i don't give a damn about this political bullshit, since when was it all about politics?

everyone can agree what needs doing... 1. get people connected to winmx, 2. get the crap off of winmx (ie. the flooders), so where is the problem? stop all the poletics and start doing things

[GhostShip]

KM its well known that folks like yourself (programmers/developers) are prone to being blunt with the options and I have fallen into that trap a little myself.

I think we are all behind the two items you have mentioned.

Thank you very much for your Input Nooky, I hope to hear a lot more of it along with others who have something to say regarding our future path.

Josh could I ask you to try to follow the special posting guidlines on this particular thread and help me keep this dialogue sensible, posting about patches etc is not what this is about and we neeed to look beyond the patch to the wider audience of prospective users and future software requirements, it may not be possible for us all to sit and allow our client to become dated and ineffective, lets hear some views on that too please.

[Me Here]

I would like to see a united front on some basic things also.

I dont think its going to be possible to work directly for us with many of the pie team.. its just got too much distrust, bad blood passed to do so. 
Its been suggested to have a third party of users, non biased and voted in to help with this process.

This would give folks a central body of representation by users.

I am sure there are a few out there that are capable and willing, do I understand you correctly Nooky that you would not only like to see this same type of group but possibly put yourself forward as a member of such?  ( I apologize for assuming, however your post seems to be saying  'I would make a good candidate').

I can think of a few others I would also suggest but that in itself may defeat the purpose of a group that we and pie can both look to for leadership.

I just feel that the first step in any progress of this Network is a United front against all.. and frankly I dont see that happening without a separate non partisan group..

[ñòóKýçrÕôK]

I would like to see a united front on some basic things also.

I dont think its going to be possible to work directly for us with many of the pie team.. its just got too much distrust, bad blood passed to do so. 
Its been suggested to have a third party of users, non biased and voted in to help with this process.

This would give folks a central body of representation by users.

I am sure there are a few out there that are capable and willing, do I understand you correctly Nooky that you would not only like to see this same type of group but possibly put yourself forward as a member of such?  ( I apologize for assuming, however your post seems to be saying  'I would make a good candidate').

I can think of a few others I would also suggest but that in itself may defeat the purpose of a group that we and pie can both look to for leadership.

I just feel that the first step in any progress of this Network is a United front against all.. and frankly I dont see that happening without a separate non partisan group..

I think that you are ok in assuming so but my problem with that is the time required to represent any group. I am a father to 3 very young girls and I work 12hr shifts. Plus there is the fact I am not so trusting of people, my tech knowledge on much of anything requiring more than good common sence would have me lost. I would not mind being on a committee of this sort but I lack time and definately lack patience if someone is not understanding of my passion. I take things very much to heart and unfortunately although I lack trust in people I take it very personal when others show lack of trust in me. I don't believe it would be a very good idea for me to be on this type of committee. sorry.

[Me Here]

humm... some of what you say is the exact reason you would be good for such.. but its also brought to mind that this would all need to be agreed upon as needed and wanted by the pie team inorder for it to work too...

I guess time will hopefully see some of them post here also...

[ñòóKýçrÕôK]

I can't claim to know a way to fix the problems here. I believe that the best way to tackle an issue is head foward, full steam. I want to help in the best way I can but I'm not even sure how the best way to help is because my lack of how all this works with MX. I work a month on day shift then a month on night shift then back to days. For the biggest part when I get days or nights off I have to spend it doing the things a father does for his family. Before I joined Vladd's forum I didn't know what little I know now. When I joined Vladd's forum it's because I moved back and forth and read so many threads that were started by members of this site and that site over issues that winmxworld didn't think the pie team took seriously enough. At that time I thought "dude, you gotta step in and just do something or say something to let these people know they're fuckin up with all this argueing". It was then that I decided to join Vladd's site. As I'm sure most of you read a lot of what I posted you know I never slammed either side. I simply called it as I saw it. I thought that maybe if both sides saw someone who just uses WinMX for what it is they would see how important it was that they got along and just did the job. All personal feelings aside. Up until a while ago I thought that it wasn't working. I have spent most of the day answering posts on both sites. Some MX related and some not MX related. Only reason I have been able to do so is because I am fairly sick atm with upper respiratory infections (more than two) and haven't been outside much at all because it's kind of cold here atm. Like I said, I like being the best friend always there to support either side but time is not my friend usually and I am always moving and taking care of things here at home. My heartfelt wishes that something, someone, some group of someones can come foward and get things rolling in the in the right direction is all I have time to offer I'm afraid. I do hope you all understand.

And KM please let me say that I believe you are also very passionate about this network. Your attitude in your post suggests you are tired. If you feel so passionatley then push your passion, but remember that when you run people over with it it hurts. Go for what you want bro, just be mindful of your roll and don't run over toes doin it.

[TheMacDaddy]

I also believe a third party of users in theory is a good idea....
But.....
I dont see how moving the goalposts is going to help here?
If a new group is created to help with the rebirth of this network i can see way to many problems with this,

1.Who are we going to pick and who is going to pick them?
2.If it is step 1 can be passed then i see the well you have more people in new group then us and it is biased against one or the other group.
3.Even if we got past step 2 then we have the problem that you will be expecting this group to make a decision on the future of Winmx
(i cant see pie wanting there fix gone for good as i cant see the dll wanting there fix gone for good)
4.If we somehow manage to get past all these 3 steps can we really see a united front?(i wish we could) but i afraid to say this has now gone to far.

We are all asking a hell of alot here and i would personally like to invite any member from Vlad's site to please post useful info here on what they feel is a good way forward?
I would also like to ask that i have your respect as i have always respected everyone involved on both sides......

If we really are serious about moving Winmx Forward then we need input from both sides.....

I have ideas on what i feel Winmx needs but i am but one person,but what the hell heres my idea...

Is it not possible that we can help vladds crew make there fix safe other then using third party software?????
This way both sides can promote there fix knowing both are safe for the network......
I cant believe this is not possible and would also allow pie to continue on there route....
Now dont tell me there is a good fix already as i know this but i also know there is no way pie are going to do away with there fix for the dll fix
So i say lets try to find a halfway point and maybe just maybe if we can come up with a idea to make pie safe then this just might be the answer.....

I would also be willing to put myself forward for this third party group if this is the route we all chose to take.

[Zepposircarressith]

Hi i found this forum quiet intresting and made me think
      well i do what i can for the network i block flooding pg2 i tell everyone i know who uses winmx to use this patch and to stop flooding im not that smart into programiing i hered that if u have a static ip u can help the network i dont know i would give my whole pc up and the connection to help winmx cause i care that much about it i want to do more im not smart but in a way i am im not saying this to sound mean cause im not like that KM tell me what i can do for winmx i will do what u tell me too and when. i know i do everything i can to help everyone with winmx issues if i can help if not i send them to winmxworld room and or the site i know this is about the future so my thing is i would like to see a better understanding of winmxworld and vladd to me this is not a fight against vladd Vs winmxworld but more like a mis understanding or no communication againts both parties and mabey thats what we all need if not then fine i see winmxworld wants to move on and keep winmx going thats fine with me.. all i want is winmx to be there when i wake up or anything yes km u made a patch u made the caches and i thank u for ur part in helping cause without alot of peeps like u winmx would not be well winmx...its not who can help its finding help and askin for help thats why im offering my help anyway i can for u guys just tell me what to do thats all i think ive done alot for winmx personally i remember when telling peeps to go to open nap stuff i told a whole room of 40 peeps how to get on open nap and i did i would sacurfice anything to keep winmx winmx and thats all i have to say agree with me or not... 

[Mick832]

I'm just a basic user with little computer knowledge.

I have used both Pie and the .dll, and currently run 1 pc on pie and 1 on the.dll.

I have got lost in the arguments back and forth as to which is best.

I don't see a new third group will work.

Maybe we settle on 1 way to connect to MX, say the pie patch, cause it "seems" to be most popular.    Then input from KM and others is accepted by Pie on ways to improve it.   I suppose I'm saying blend the 2 together.   Technically that may not be possible, but maybe the ideas and goals of each group can be blended.   It wiil mean constructive criticism of the pie patch be given by one side and accepted by the other side.

[..Ñøßߥ..]

This is an EXTREMELY simple issue for me, i voted for yes, we should make a unified effort.

THATS ALL I WANTED AND TRIED TO ACHEIVE FROM THE WORD GO!!!

But without in anyway flaming, this is a dream, as several of the key players will not work with each other, i dont wish to be in any way negative, but at the same time i must inject some reality into this thread:

1. Ghost over the last serveral days has launched a severe personal attack on me, this hardly is a great launch pad for any new level of cooperation is it?

2. KM is a loner, and is unlikely to work for or with any newly formed committie, i dont hold this against him at all, thats the way he is, but the bottom line is he is a key player and stands alone with only those willing to follow his lead along for the ride.

3. Ghost and Vladd owners of the 2 major communication site on Winmx dont speak and have expressed they will never work together, how would this be resolved? Even with a neutral commitee they are going to be powerless without some framework of communication between  afore mentioned parties.

4. I'm not sure where canidates for such a neutral committee would come from, and indeed how they could be fairly put into place, and indeed would they ever be neutral? I mean a vast percentage of those that care enough about winmx to want to help save it, have already sided to 1 degree or another. I wouldnt be agaisnt someone like Mac Daddy being on the committee, as i think he is a decent chap, but bottom line most Pie supporters wont vote for him as he has stronger connections the other way and vise versa.

There are a whole range of other issues like these to tackle before the way can be cleared for a neutral committee i would however be very interested in seeing how folks are proposing to tackle these things, prior to the forming of a new group.

In addition have to say i have some frustration with this, it took pie team a few months to get the blocking sorted granted, im not looking for credit for anything here but lets just recall i walked into Sabres room  just a couple of days after the shut done to a hail of abuse i might add, some of the first statements i made were for projecting solidarity, singing from the same song sheet, having simultanous updates and info on Both Vladd44 and winmxworld to ensure users didnt get mixed messages, having 1 big marketing plan to reach the disconnected users etc etc  and its taken this long for peeps to realise thats the only way to achive the marketing goal here?  

Vladd & Gem took my ideas seriously and onboard and to a degree so did Ghost a big team began to form, but it didnt take long for division and opinion to divide, some left over differing opinions and personal issues, then a flame war began that IMHO dented the cedibility of Winmx in some users eyes, how would this be prevented this time around??

We need more specifics here, but in principal the idea is the same one i put forward a long time ago, and i support it now as i did then in principal.

There are many many thousands of ex users of Winmx, that have never heard of vladd44.com or Winmxworld.com or Pie, or the .dll patch, its those people we must reach out to a committee may help this, but without the support of the current major figures on each side i think it would be very difficult.

[GhostShip]

Nobby for the reasons you mentioned I and others have dug trenches and yes over issues that seem stupid to most users.

As many are now pointing out the way forward is not dependent on vladd , myself etc, yes we can individualy do our bit (and do), but we need to look long on matters, solutions are around the corner to many old issues and unity of the users is required to make many solutions work better.

With this in mind I had the intention of helping create a committee that anyone who uses winmx can put themselves up for and would be able to bring out the best in both factions to move us all forward as a unified group.

I hate to think how much effort is being wasted on research that one side or the other has already undertaken and how much effort is expended in other fields, is it not time to build something for the future, people leave and new people take their place and those are the folks who we will be handing over the network to.
The current power structures on both sides are not allowing fresh help to make its mark or take its place in the overall chain.

I have no problem in offering calm and professional advice to those who ask me for it, I feel sure many of the pie folks are just as willing so it seems the hold up is the rift, this committee should be looked at as a way past that, Winmx's future should not be in a hockshop because we where too angry to pay for it when the price was affordable.

[GnarlySnarly]

How can one vote on an undefined plan?

Should one vote?

Are there alternatives to voting?

Of what significance is such a vote?

What is the purpose of such a vote?

Who, if any, would be bound by such a vote?

Folks we have reached a kind of impasse,

Who is this 'we'?

we wish to move the community forward

Who is this 'we'?

but we dont feel we should do this alone.

Who is this 'we'?

Two distinct sides have been taken over many matters and many months have been spend wasting time and marginalising those who actually make things happen in the winmx sphere, and generally wasting each others time in fighting and throwing mud at each other for one reason or another.

And what part did 'we' play in this divisiveness?

We want that to change and this change can only be brought about by a united front and effort to improve matters for us all, what I propose is simple, a new all encompassing committee not run by either faction that can unite all sides under an umbrella committee to allow for the helpful and free exchange of information and direct plans in development, blocking support, public information and emergency planning in an open and democratic fashion.

What is an "all encompassing committee"?  What does it 'encompass'?  What 'authority' does it have?  Would it have power to direct, dictate?  And if so, how would such 'direction' be enforced?

Is doing things in a 'democratic' fashion preferable?  Is not that sumply the dictatorship of a majority?

And if there are 1,000,000 active winmx users, should 500,001 be able to impose their way on the other 499,999?

Or do you propose a committee of 9? shall decide matters for all 1,000,000?  by a 'democratic, open vote' of course?

quod omnes tangit, ab omnibus approbetur

[/size]

(whatever touches all, must be approved by all)

[/size]

“No community could confer absolute power on a ruler because the community itself did not have absolute
power over its individual members.” -- Bartoleme de las Casas

http://www.mises.org/journals/jls/19_2/19_2_4.pdf


A story from south of the border

A rock slide had blocked the mountain trail.  While many of the rocks could be 'man-handled' and pushed off the trail and down the slope, one particularly huge boulder was just too big.  A small Indian man, with a small hammer and chisel was busy, chipping pieces off the boulder and tossing them over the side.  He labored for days, chipping away at the huge rock.  It was not his 'job'.  He was not an employee of the 'road commission'.  He was simply a man who lived nearby.  This was his community.  And this rock was impeding the pathway.  So day after day he would chip away.  Not because anyone directed him to do it.  He just took it upon himself to 'gitter dun'. It needed to be done.  So he just did it.  He didn't lay in his hammock and say 'they can't pay me enough for the blisters'.  He just packed some food and set off each day to the site, to keep chipping away.


In contrast, see:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coordinatorism

Alternatives to 'democracy' [elected dictatorship]:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anarchism
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Consensus
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Consensus_decision-making

Anarchy and anarchism mean "system and management without ruler(s), i.e. co-operation without repression, tyranny and slavery".

www.anarchy.no