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Author Topic: clafirication on official winmxworld policy  (Read 26585 times)

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Offline GhostShip

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Re: clafirication on official winmxworld policy
« Reply #40 on: August 11, 2007, 01:00:47 am »
The benefits are two main ones, firstly it can be used as a replacement patch for both ourselves and pie folks who want to move forward with a trusted solution instead of being stuck listening to the groups fighting, and secondary being open src its simple to open the code in notepad and see whats in it and even build it yourself if you have the tools , thus ensuring its trojan and trapdoor free and confidence in it will grow from that.

These are important moves forward in my view as we cannot rely on KM forever, now he has made his intentions clear its only sensible we have something in hand to keep things rolling, and in the future someones going to need this patch and src code, mabye later rather than sooner but without open info to hand down the network will stagnate as it will also do if we cannot pull together and halt the sillyness of two years bickering.



Offline Bearded Blunder

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Re: clafirication on official winmxworld policy
« Reply #41 on: August 11, 2007, 02:40:51 am »
i've nothing whatsoever against a new patch written by someone (for political rerasons if no other) by someone other than KM in order to stem some of the personality issues that have caused disunity...

open src might have advantages as far as trust & transparency are concerned with those parties...

it's what the real enemy might learn, deduce, discover, or exploit from that code that really worries me...

don't saw down the olive tree just so you can offer one branch, a mistake could cost winmx it's existance
Blessed is he who expecteth nothing, for he shall not be disappointed.

Re: clafirication on official winmxworld policy
« Reply #42 on: August 11, 2007, 03:43:24 am »
I think what the bearded blunder says holds a lot of water.

The advantages of this being; presenting a united front and some transparency for the conspiracy nuts out there.

It would seem to me that the only reason transparency is needed is because of the finger pointing and mud slinging which is a direct result of the divided front.
If a patch can be released which is a product from both parties an is backed by both parties then the transparency is not needed.

I feel that the open source issue is moot point and that in itself is not going to provide any benefit to the network but will introduce a lot of angst and tension into the community.
I honestly don't think the benefits of open source come any where near outweighing the problems it will introduce to the community.
If there is any chance of presenting a united front through a jointly developed patch, then for f*cks sake grab that chance and hold onto it and let's stop dicking around with this open source palaver.

Offline SamSeeSam

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Re: clafirication on official winmxworld policy
« Reply #43 on: August 11, 2007, 09:26:15 am »
Just for the vote : I am against opening the source code to everyone.

I don't know why, but I have felt that the attackers had benifited from the open source winmx programs (robo, etc) in some way if making fake results.

In particular, the file listing part in robomx (the message you see when you open a browse in robomx) might have been used in some way by them is something I have felt, Whether right or wrong, I don't know. And I'd be happy to hear about it...

if the patch needs to be opensource to bring them into the group, then all I'd like to ask is if you are 101% sure that they will work in harmony with us all, and that there will be no problems whatsoever (atleast for the forseeable future)?

Also, will the blocking mechanism (how the patch blocks fake files) be open source as well?
Well this is the first P2P to ever have one and I want people decades down the line to say ,
"winmx was the first to be fake file free, and you can still get a working copy here <link>"

The second reason for opensource...
I checked it with norton and avast...
And seriously, how many of those who say it is a trojan will actually bother to see it's source?
I haven't searched, but I don't think it'd be hard to find people who call sourceforge projects trojans either...

Moving forward is something I'd like but not at a risk like this.

Cheers :P
Reconnect to winmx with the blocking patch :)
Patch link :
http://patch.winmxconex.com/

Spread the word now :)

Offline GhostShip

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Re: clafirication on official winmxworld policy
« Reply #44 on: August 11, 2007, 09:43:51 am »
I dont call making a united future for us all "dicking around" and whilst you speak of the patchs internal workings you actually have little idea of what those are so this is actually more likely the reason you fear open src, ignorance.

I however have taken the time to do my homework and know that there are not problems likely to occur with an open src patch that are specific to it, I do not guarantee Microsofts products though and for this reason can never give a 1000% guarantee on not having a problem.
Lets me state here I have done over 18 months of research on the WPN and am more than familiar with how it works as regards the packet types its going to be using internally, also having discussed many potential issues with KM throughout that period its unlikely there are any unknown side effects in taking this step.

As regards the coders working on the patch they are a mixed group of folks from both camps and looking to the future, we have twice seen how relying on a single entity leads to the path of ruin and in this respect they are in the same boat as we where vis-a-vis Sabre.

Please also take note that the instigator of this thread who made the original claim has not returned to back his claims of network doom and gloom, could this be because after a good nights rest, he realised he had made an error ?

If it helps anyone I can put together some pictures of the patch architecture that show roughly what it does and how it does it, then a least we can all focus on anything of theoretical concern and address it.


Folks, this is no done deal, it is however going to happen, when the patch is finished it will be tested by both sides and any problems addressed, its at this stage that the question of deployment will be raised, this is where you can all take part in ensuring that it really is safe and ready, and if its not it will not be deployed.






 

Re: clafirication on official winmxworld policy
« Reply #45 on: August 11, 2007, 01:03:51 pm »
There are two issues here, one being the joint effort on a new patch, two the release of that patch as open source.

I haven't read any negative comments about the joint effort. I think that will be of great benefit to the network. No argument there at all.

Once this new patch has been created and both camps support it, I still cannot see what benefit there will be of releasing it as open source. I can however see potential for a lot of unneeded tension within the community.

Offline ]-[êll.Ôñ.ËÀR'][']-[.

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Re: clafirication on official winmxworld policy
« Reply #46 on: August 11, 2007, 01:47:45 pm »
Just what winmx needs...... yet another patch to chip away even further at the userbase & drive even more users away due to frustration/ confusion /change.
No wonder ppl give up and go elsewhere where they can load and use something without trawling around trying to find answers on how to get a prog to work,
how often do you think your average user is going to bother with this?

If there is to be another  fix then it needs to be something that works for everyone without them having to try this or try that just to get the damn thing to connect not just something thats chucked out & frustrates ppl because it wont work for them.
As for making it open source  we all know if there is the slightest possibility of it being exploited then sure as night follows day it will be ( i know myself of at least half a dozen ppl that would relish the chance just to say they can ) its in certain ppls nature they dont need rhyme or reason just the chance.

As for being a joint effort all i can see happening there is more arguments & more bad feeling caused & more ppl packing in winmx altogether as in 2 years no one can agree on bugger all as it is between the 2 camps (or even here if recent posts are anything to go on) so whats all of a sudden going to change there to make it work?
i think all this will achieve is to blow the whole network further apart & set winmx back even further
you say about being open and honest but at what expense? the future of winmx perhaps.....

your average user has no idea on how the progs on there pc work so why do they use them?    because they are reliable .... they work well .... and they do everything they say on the tin...... the ones that dont work they cast aside and forget them
your always going to get some technical minded ppl that want to know exactly how everything works its human nature to these very ppl just the same as your going to get the ones that all they want to do is destroy it.
 
speaking as your average user here i would much rather have something that bloody works hassle free.... that and that alone is what will make winmx great again not everyone arguing over a bit of coding or what patch is best (or crap as the case maybe)
i haven't posted this for someone to dissect/pull apart and argue over like a bit of open source code... i posted because this is how i feel as an average user & what i would personaly like to see happen
DOWNLOAD/OPEN/RIGHT CLICK/WORKS A TREAT/PURE JOY :)
      

Offline 50s Boomer

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Re: clafirication on official winmxworld policy
« Reply #47 on: August 11, 2007, 01:53:49 pm »
Well after all this looking I've finally found Vladd's room again. Top heavy on mods(who i thought were supposed to be equals) but with a select few with absolute power that are gonna do whatever they want and a few that post right behind another ones advice just to get post numbers up. Ah the good old days are back.  Peace!

Offline GhostShip

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Re: clafirication on official winmxworld policy
« Reply #48 on: August 11, 2007, 02:13:35 pm »
I didnt see any tension when any similar program was released or did I miss something ?

Once again can I point to Bendmx, MCMA both open src as well as RCMS and some others that all are near identical to the patch internally, its rather well and good to say theres "tension" but fear backed by no technical evidence is something I,m not of the mind to bother with, its illogical.

Some folks have contacted me directly to discuss their concerns and some have merit, others not, but in all cases I see the mixture of politics to facts as rather lop-sided  :?

Does anyone have any valid technical reasons to support their concerns ?  

Please note:  For the Admins and Supervisors here I am able and willing to provide extended technical information to help you understand the possible pitfalls and how they may or may not be of concern, I feel this is only fair as its possibly hard for you all to make decisions in your thinking based on not actually knowing whats involved , I hope many of you take up this offer.
In the event your still not happy its likely a more solid case for not proceeding could then be made based on your increased understanding, but regardless all decisions taken on this subject will  be of a transparently open nature.

PS: For the "do nothing" club members, can I remind you all who pulled the plug on us recently without real warning, my fear is he will do the same with the current patch and I for one am not willing to sit and watch things die out due to one persons views.

Offline ]-[êll.Ôñ.ËÀR'][']-[.

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Re: clafirication on official winmxworld policy
« Reply #49 on: August 11, 2007, 04:27:59 pm »
seems to me like its a done deal whatever based on ppl not knowing the technical side of things....
seems like km isnt the only one that uses these tactics to get his own way
 
well i know one thing winmx is falling apart at the seams and all handing out scissors will do is make it happen faster..... you dont need to be a tekki to work that one out
what it needs is a programme that works for everyone ....or at least the vast majority without constant churning out of diffrent patches & installers & advice on how to use them etc

If efforts were spent achieving this instead of constant in fighting about bits of code & arguments amongst admins then perhaps winmx can take steps to get to the front of the queue in the p2p world, as a good working programme without hassles will always attract more users than one-upmanship on the part of the ppl that should be striving to achieve this.
      

Offline GhostShip

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Re: clafirication on official winmxworld policy
« Reply #50 on: August 11, 2007, 05:32:11 pm »
Perhaps a little reading would help Hell ?
I have taken the time to learn the technical side of things, perhaps you should too.

Nice try at changing the topic mind you, the skys falling in and we are all doomed eh ?
While people run winmx down and do nothing to learn how to improve matters, how do you expect anything to change, your your own worst enemy.
* GhostShip hands hell some glasses   
If an identical patch is used by all winmx users that is progress in my book or have you not bothered to read any of this thread ???  :roll:

Perhaps KM was right in saying many are too lazy to do anything for themselves and thats why he was leaving.

If folks really dont want this patch for political reasons only perhaps I shall join him, so far not one tech arguement has been laid down, lets see if we can at least up that number within the next 24 hours.

Offline Mizz

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Re: clafirication on official winmxworld policy
« Reply #51 on: August 11, 2007, 06:27:24 pm »
i cant make any mention at all about open source and patch stuff...im simply not smart enough to know what you are all talking about.....

all i can say is this....

i stand behind a combined effort of both groups....2 ways to connect to a network, and specialy if one isnt any good, is simply silly.....why not work together and have 1 way of connecting....and YES the real winmx users will make that effort to use winmx via a new way of connecting...this is a STRONG community, lets not forget that. I am not a fan of some of the pie people but DAMN just coze theres a few bad apples ? dont mean the whole basket is ruined !
I wish atleast we all can be strong enough to step over our differences as far as PIE is concerned...their group will never be my favorite batch of people....but we all live and learn and that gives me hope for the future....so maybe its time to stop cutting down ideas before they are actualy grow !  and sorry if this isnt completly on topic but i felt it needed to be said (again)

Alice

If God, in his infinite Wisdom, made me an Atheist...then who are you to Question him ?

Offline Bearded Blunder

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Re: clafirication on official winmxworld policy
« Reply #52 on: August 11, 2007, 06:56:47 pm »
if reading the source could tell you what exploits someone else reading it might find
internet explorer would be a secure browser, and would have been from day one...
yet patches appear for holes someone else found with startling regularity & these holes were found without the free guide where to look the source provides...
if securing things is so hard even closed source, why are we considering handing the keys to everyone?
Blessed is he who expecteth nothing, for he shall not be disappointed.

Offline GhostShip

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Re: clafirication on official winmxworld policy
« Reply #53 on: August 11, 2007, 11:36:05 pm »
The patch works its magic by following the various protocols that are standard in many spheres, yes some protocols can have a "coach and horses" drive through them the flaws are so wide, the WPN protocol is something that has been tweaked and improved for 5 years, each new winmx release had improvements to fix any holes and issues found in the previous builds, and many of the common attack vectors for programs are well known ones and just waiting for idiots to exploit such as buffer overflow attacks, this is not the case either in the WPN protocol that has been upgraded many times to fix these issues, it doesnt actually require much for it to connect to a peer cache and then let the hardened winmx protgram take over as before, a program that has been engineered over a long time to be proof against many threats, any holes are likely to be basic winsock flaws not anything to do specifically with winmx.

What keys are you thinking we are handing over as various methods to connect to the WPN have been open sourced for 3 years now, something many seem to have forgotten.


Offline ]-[êll.Ôñ.ËÀR'][']-[.

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Re: clafirication on official winmxworld policy
« Reply #54 on: August 12, 2007, 12:04:43 am »
Quote
Perhaps a little reading would help Hell ?
I have taken the time to learn the technical side of things, perhaps you should too.
seems anyone who does not agree with you ghostship is met with this reply (much like someone else who used to quote much the same kind of thing when other ppls opinions differed from his own)
Quote
Nice try at changing the topic mind you, the skys falling in and we are all doomed eh ?
most certainly will be if you lot don't soon get your acts together and work with each other (if the admins here cant agree then what hope is there with any agreement what so ever with the pie team?) btw what i said was about handing out the source code very much part of the topic
also seems like you are quoting from kms book of quotes there ghost but nice try

Quote
While people run winmx down and do nothing to learn how to improve matters, how do you expect anything to change, your your own worst enemy.
Far from running winmx down ghost i spend a hell of a lot of time helping ppl with winmx & trying to build it back up ( which incidentally if it wasn't so low & things were so rosey in the garden wouldn't need building up at all)

Quote
* GhostShip hands hell some glasses
 
*]-[êll.Ôñ.ËÀR'][']-[  hands back ghostship them glasses to read other posts on this site from admins/hosts/users alike making the same comments about winmx as a whole these days

Quote
If an identical patch is used by all winmx users that is progress in my book or have you not bothered to read any of this thread ???
i think it is you that needs to read ghost as i quoted earlier
Quote
what it needs is a programme that works for everyone ....or at least the vast majority without constant churning out of different patches & installers & advice on how to use them etc

Quote
Perhaps KM was right in saying many are too lazy to do anything for themselves and that's why he was leaving.
perhaps if his own ego hadn't got the better of him and he actually listened to ppl now and then these ppl would have made more of an effort & he would still be here

Quote
If folks really don't want this patch for political reasons only perhaps I shall join him,
I have no political reasons what so ever this is the only winmx site i have been a member of ... my posts are purely based on my own obsetvations  as mizz said
Quote
2 ways to connect to a network, and specialy if one isnt any good, is simply silly
which in itself begs the question what are they going to bring to the table when they cant get there own patch running right? there certainly seems to be no plusses there for me just more trouble ahead.
Quote
perhaps I shall join him,
i see kms threats have been handed down to the 2nd formost authority on winmx to emerge ghost
*]-[êll.Ôñ.ËÀR'][']-[ hands ghost back his football so he can take it home

Quote
so far not one tech argument has been laid down, lets see if we can at least up that number within the next 24 hours.
it doesn't need to be a tech argument ghost to see where problems are going to emerge from common sense will tell you that.

Btw handing out insults ghost really doesn't help your case... tsk tsk have you not learnt this from the past as even us less technical minded minions out there can quite easily throw them back.
Belittling ppl based on there technical abilities is so not an endearing feature ghost especially in a supervisor.... i dont need to be a mechanic to know if my cars running crap & i certainly dont need to know the full workings of winmx to know where problems lie



 



      

Offline GhostShip

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Re: clafirication on official winmxworld policy
« Reply #55 on: August 12, 2007, 12:43:45 am »
Quote
i dont need to be a mechanic to know if my cars running crap & i certainly dont need to know the full workings of winmx to know where problems lie

It would be more helpful then to outline "where the problems lie" that to base your pitch purely on politics, I have asked and seen very few real technical reasons for not continuing with the project, Merlin and the Silicon Toads have thus far contacted me and received a more detailed overview of the patch and possible issues at stake, this is what was meant by the 24 hours comment, some of us take matters seriously enough to bother informing others and answering questions, that is after all why the site was set up.

As for being insulting, having to read your posts that help no one except your ego is insulting to me, I prefer honesty and a genuine desire to bring something to the debate over your views on myself.

Folks, you are all free to use the voting feature on the site to change the direction we are going at anytime, I have seen concern but trust from most folks that we should tread carefully, I take this on board and as do the coders who are actualy spending their time trying to make any potential problems something we need not fear.


Offline TheMacDaddy

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Re: clafirication on official winmxworld policy
« Reply #56 on: August 12, 2007, 01:02:25 am »
I take it from what i am reading that you are looking into the idea of handing Team Pie the source code for thw Winmxworld fix for Winmx?

If this is correct then what concerns me most of all is not the RIAA/MPAA getting there hands on this (lets face it they could of already with easy to use apps out there,and i am sure they have the techs to understand it) but what really does worrie me is the like of Vladd and a few others who have openly said they want to either own or take down Winmx having access to this sort of info.

Where as in the long run i know it would help Winmx in the whole to have all users on the same patch i seriously worrie about putting faith in a group who so blatently claim to want to kill of Winmx

Lets face it wasnt it not so long ago that the said V44 group claimed that blocking fakes was illegal ???????

We need to look at who runs V44 and in my eyes nothing has changed over there thus i still (all be it personaly) can not and will not trust a single word they have to say when it comes to Winmx

I seen to many of there lies to want to give them free easy access and a free role to play in how Winmx's fix should be managed.

This is just my opinion and i will stand by it until the day V44 shows me something to make me change my mind.


Offline ]-[êll.Ôñ.ËÀR'][']-[.

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Re: clafirication on official winmxworld policy
« Reply #57 on: August 12, 2007, 02:01:19 am »
Quote
It would be more helpful then to outline "where the problems lie" that to base your pitch purely on politics,
how many times ghost my posts are based purely on observations not politics perhaps you should take some of your own advice and read .....
my problems lie in the fact (a) wanting to join forces with ppl whose only achievement has been to come up with a far superior patch to the wmw one ( as i said b4 what can they bring to the table except more arguments) & (b) why tempt fate by releasing the source code when most ppls opinions have been that it will be used against winmx the 1st chance possible

Quote
As for being insulting, having to read your posts that help no one except your ego is insulting to me
all i did was point out a couple of facts

Quote
Perhaps KM was right in saying many are too lazy to do anything for themselves and that's why he was leaving.
reply
Quote
perhaps if his own ego hadn't got the better of him and he actually listened to ppl now and then these ppl would have made more of an effort & he would still be here

something that is no great secret to anyone that has read posts on here

Quote
seems to me like its a done deal whatever based on ppl not knowing the technical side of things....
seems like km isnt the only one that uses these tactics to get his own way
something that most of your answers on this thread have pointed to so if pointing out what is so obvious to so many ppl is fueling my own ego so be it

Quote
I prefer honesty and a genuine desire to bring something to the debate over your views on myself.
there you go again ghost with the insults  & trying to brush aside genuine concerns that you don't agree with.

whatever i post is my honest opinions just because they are not your own opinions they are no less valid or is it that we shouldn't post unless we agree with your good self ?
if i hadn't bought anything to the debate you wouldn't be sat up on that high horse of yours dolling out such replies as you have here
i have no personal views on yourself or anyone else on this site as i don't know you personaly to have them i base my replies in response to whats in front of me nothing more.

just because i don't agree with you on certain issues ghost it doesn't mean i dont want  the same thing for winmx that being building it up to be a front runner if not the best p2p network there is
i have the utmost respect for your technical abilities just as i do for a good many others on this site but please lets try to be a little less condescending to others who are not of your own technical abilities because if your gonna throw mud you got to expect to get dirty yourself
i don't have a political view on things i just speak my own mind as i see it (weather it be right or wrong) & it is always with the best intentions for winmx i favor wmw over pie every time but not for politics just based on facts & there attitudes to ppl seeking advice and or help & i can see no reason for them being involved in something that already has the best resources working on it & even if forces were joined there would be someone else ready to take up the mantle elsewhere to challenge wmw for sure
      

icedragon

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Re: clafirication on official winmxworld policy
« Reply #58 on: August 12, 2007, 09:37:38 pm »
when was the vote taken by the community quicks to put you in charge of negotiateing winmx,s demise.........or like vladd have you self appointed your self to this position.............
merlin is absolutely correct in his statements regarding the release of the source code to winmxworlds patch. only ones who will benefit from this is the cartel..........
your statements regarding it will help to stop the conspiracy theorits is a joke, only ones pointing fingers and makeing slurs are pie.........and who cares about a handfull of users in one room aka nobbys version of pie, and macdaddy is correct in his overview of the nobby/vladd version of pie, repeated statements by this group shouldnt be ignored, to do so will only hurt winmx in the end..........the only pie group of any importance is the gem / sabre mob at least they have a cache, something more then the rest of pie can produce......and this lot have told you to piss off they want nothing to do with you,,,,.........so im curious as im sure the rest of the community is, who benefits from this source code disclosure  and this snuggling up to those that have repeatedly stated if they cant control winmx they will destroy it........winmx sure dont, or is there a hidden agender going on here, more secret committees were winmxs fate is decided by a few who have appointed themselves to positions of importance............boy im haveing trouble disquishing between the vladd pie winmx and the now winmxworld pie opps group.......or is there a difference, sure doesnt look like it from were i sit............
just because you dont like km doesnt mean his message is wrong, or is it just easier to ignore the message pretend its not real........or as has become obvious take the position of a bunch of ex pie maggots who suddenly have reformed seen the light, but now who hold positions of influence within winmxworld and in only a few short months have twisted winmxgroups policy to funnyly enough one that sure looks like pie policy..............where were these people over the last 2 yrs, i would susgest hanging out in pie rooms and certainly not doing anything that benefitted winmx.........think about it...........
those that devoted thousands of hours of there time to not only building up winmxgroup/world but to saveing winmx from the clutches of pie are now suddenly no longer wanted, banned from rooms and forums, i wonder why.........something to hide have we.............in the days when only 5 or 6 of the original winmxgroup/world posted on vladds forum day after day, adviseing the community of what was really going on where were all thse so called winmxworld supporters then????????? .......
winmxworld was supposed to be the voice of the community, funny how a select few have voted themselves into positions were there secretly off negotiateing with the smallest of the 3 pie groups the release of the source code to a patch they dont own........after all km still owns the patch he just very kindly allowed merlin to edit it to point to new caches, to keep winmx going,,,,,,all supposidely to the benefit of winmx LMAO.......and what is nobbys pie giveing to this arrangement, besides nothing, after all they have nothing to give...........
winmx doesnt need any deals with those that have stated if they cant control winmx they will destroy it.......there is absolutely no reason for winmxworld to hand over the source code to a patch 1 that they dont own and 2 that will benefit no one except the cartel.......if comprimiseing winmx so that a small group of idiots wont point fingers and say nasty things about winmxworld then big deal.............
if you really had winmx,s best interests at heart you would take a poll of the community to see if this is what they want, as after all winmx belongs to the community and not anyone person or group, and a group of self appointed persons whose motives must now be called into question certainly have no business negotiateing anything on behalf of the community without first getting a mandate from the community to do this.............or is it as i suspect, that power has gone to a few peoples heads, giveing them dillusions of grandur that the community no longer matter and that these select few know best for winmx..........
and the difference between vladds pie and the current winmxworld is???????????????

Offline 50s Boomer

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Re: clafirication on official winmxworld policy
« Reply #59 on: August 12, 2007, 11:40:54 pm »
I've been with winmx many years now. When Fontcode quit I took mx off my machine and waited to see what would happen. I was in Vladds forum for a long time and I liked him up till the wars and I knew he was gonna try to take over before a word was ever said. I found this place and did a lot of reading before I joined because this place seemed to really want to help people. When KM shut down i removed mx again to wait and see what would happen. Well it seems I did the right thing for once. I doubt if I ever put it back on. Go ahead and give pie the keys to the house but don't be suprised when you come home one day with no where to sit.    Peace!

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