Author Topic: POLL: Winmx Patch and Should It Be Open Or Closed Source ? (Read 18454 times)

Cobra · « **Reply #20 on:** September 09, 2007, 11:16:29 pm »

I like your view, LazyRosa.

Simple and to the point unlike most of mine.

I'm not sure why my other post was left trapped in the area that was closed, so I will reword and restate. I voted Not Sure because I don't know all of the issues or consequences behind both, but I have a good imagination.

THE DANGERS: What I see with open source is the ability for anyone to come in, make modifications that anyone may download, that person runs the modified patch, and it screws with their computer or screws with the system, and they run here or other places to try and get the problem fixed. I know that viruses and issues can be added to anything that currently exists without open source, but if someone currently run here to complain, because the patch isn't currently open source and we know the exact filesize, SRC, and Hash of the patch that does work properly without viruses, our response is simply: "It's not valid. Download the version that works from [some link] and your problems will be solved".

THE COMMUNITY: Would this site and forum exist to police, aid, and educate on the bad versions out there or only help people who have the patch downloaded from this site? If you feel the answer is the later, then yes open source might make it less likely that WinMX as a whole would shut down, but wouldn't it also change what was a battle between two groups and two patches (I remember when I first joined and asked questions, there was a sort of braggart "Our patch is much better than theirs" attitude) to instead having 10 groups bickering about which of their 10 patches is the best?

UNITY OR STRUGGLE?: Wouldn't it pull WinMX further apart rather than bringing it closer together because with every group there would be someone who's wanting power, and they will find it one way or another even if it's "more people have joined my forum instead of yours! That makes our patch better!"

DragonRider · « **Reply #21 on:** September 10, 2007, 01:27:15 am »

Open scource. There has already been too much secrecy and back room deals in the past for WinMX. What was Pie Patch's biggest selling point? That it was a plain text Hosts file. Any user that wanted to could look at the file, change the file, or ask questions line by line about the file. Openess is trust. We have to be able to trust each other. People, (myself included), still wonder if KM's .dll had anything to do with the DOS attack on Vladd's Website. We may never know unless we see the scource code for ourselves. As has already been mentioned, it doesn't matter if it is open scource or closed as far as the RIAA is concerned, they have the money, the rescources, and the technology to decompile and probably reverse engineer any patch that could be developed here.

Scyre · « **Reply #22 on:** September 10, 2007, 01:56:03 am »

Well said Cobra. That is indeed what I forsee. More splintering and chaos then there is presently.
Hopefully people will think about this a lot more before making such a serious change.

It is the problems we can't predict that are the real threat...

And as for all the BS about backroom deals..I have NEVER seen such on the wmw front, but I remember several discussions with v44 and crew about how to charge and make money off of it all....

And I don't buy all the 'magical hidden things in there so we NEED to see the source' crap either. It is just another attempt to justify getting the family jewels. WMW has always been there to keep the community alive and that's what was happening 'behind doors' if anyone really wants to know.

And truth be told, the openess that came with the hosts file fix (MY idea to begin with, that I no longer see as a usuable solution) is due to the fact that the hosts file is a txt file to begin with... You guys never had a programmer that could make heads or tails out of any of it, and therefore only had my idea to work with. So don't come holding your head up high saying 'we just wanted to be transparent to the users' when it had nothing to do with the hosts file being created by M$ when they designed the windows OS. They made it transparent, and the foothold you have in that file does not prove you are full of integrity. In fact many of your actions prove you all are not.

Many times v44 and crew have launched DOS attack on wmw people and that is not who I would EVER choose to place the trust in to have the source to anything. They will screw you the first chance they get.

Sorry if this ruffles feathers, but I will not hesitate to tell the truth on the matter.

Be Good,
Scyre

Be Good!

Scyre

Scyre · « **Reply #23 on:** September 10, 2007, 01:59:11 am »

where did a second signature come from ^ ?

lmao

]-[êll.Ôñ.ËÀR'][']-[. · « **Reply #24 on:** September 10, 2007, 02:21:59 am »

a little food for thought

http://blogs.ittoolbox.com/linux/locutus/archives/the-real-difference-between-open-and-closed-source-programming-14189

if the post at the above addy is a true statement of facts then open source the code can still be controlled by the person that wrote any section of code according to whether they licence it
would also explain that whilst the riaa may well have the ability to decompile and probably reverse engineer any patch whilst it is closed source they wont for fear of being sued
hence if it is open source & not licenced then they may well be able to and get away with it & do something that would be a major coup for themselves & shut down any unlicenced patches and render them useless

something i think everyone will agree with is that if the riaa could close winmx they would as this would send out a major warning to the world of p2p just as it did when they forced frontcode with there cease and desist order & i think that whilst the patch has been closed source so far they cant stop it for fear of getting their asses sued off.....
open source and no licence.... they could legaly close any patch they like & laugh there socks off into the bargain as no one could challenge there actions
open source and the sections of code licenced ..... would possibly stop them for legal reasons but then it would still be owned by the author & render that author free to act god at any time they please

whilst i am no lawyer and possibly these points may be incorrect wouldnt it be wise to check out b4 any desision is made as to future patches as any desision could possibly give the riaa exactly what they want & we all know that is to close winmx and crow to the world that they have done so ..... something that im sure they would have done so already if they could have legaly

so in my opinion ( & this is only my opinion so no need to attack me for it ) open source or closed its a case of the lesser of 2 evils..... that being if we give the riaa (or anyone else that choses to) the legal licence to close winmx ..... something that atm i dont think they can (or surely they would have)

Mick832 · « **Reply #25 on:** September 10, 2007, 02:30:55 am »

Quote from: Scyre on September 10, 2007, 01:56:03 am

And as for all the BS about backroom deals..I have NEVER seen such on the wmw front, but I remember several discussions with v44 and crew about how to charge and make money off of it all....

And I don't buy all the 'magical hidden things in there so we NEED to see the source' crap either. It is just another attempt to justify getting the family jewels. WMW has always been there to keep the community alive and that's what was happening 'behind doors' if anyone really wants to know.

And truth be told, the openess that came with the hosts file fix (MY idea to begin with, that I no longer see as a usuable solution) is due to the fact that the hosts file is a txt file to begin with... You guys never had a programmer that could make heads or tails out of any of it, and therefore only had my idea to work with. So don't come holding your head up high saying 'we just wanted to be transparent to the users' when it had nothing to do with the hosts file being created by M$ when they designed the windows OS. They made it transparent, and the foothold you have in that file does not prove you are full of integrity. In fact many of your actions prove you all are not.

Many times v44 and crew have launched DOS attack on wmw people and that is not who I would EVER choose to place the trust in to have the source to anything. They will screw you the first chance they get.

Sorry if this ruffles feathers, but I will not hesitate to tell the truth on the matter.

Be Good!
Scyre

And it seemed that everybody was starting to play nicely together, and somebody had to rehash ancient history.

We have to look forward, not backwards. We now have the 2 major players gone from both sides, being Vladd and KM. Maybe now we can concentrate on the future as a group of WinMX users, not 2 or 3 seperate sides. If we can't start to trust each other then lets just make it open source, send it to RIAA and let them kill it.

Scyre · « **Reply #26 on:** September 10, 2007, 03:25:59 am »

Sorry you feel that way Mick.

"somebody had to rehash ancient history" <---um that someone wasn't me

"There has already been too much secrecy and back room deals " <----that was something I won't allow to pass unanswered.

Simply put: Back room deals? Prove it.

And for the record Mick, that history is not so 'ancient' so don't expect that now KM has gone awry, that everyone suddenly puts blinders on and forgets all that has been done. Many of these antics are less than a couple months old and I for one will not forget so easy.

True enough I would like to see a perfect WinMX where everyone liked everyone, but that is an unreality. People have tried to do some really awful things and they cannot expect to not be remembered as such.

There have been a few posts lately that have shed light on new angles and issues to be considered which I hope the community takes seriously. But this is all in addition to existing issues that we will face if the source were only available to the 2 main camps.

Open source is a VERY bad idea and I don't think that people are well informed because of all this 'we can't prove there was not anything in KMs patch that may have been responsible for attacking V44' load of crap.

Equally so, we can't prove that V44 is not a satanic cult, so therefore we should assume it is?

It is a bunch of garbage, and the users have the right to be correctly informed on this decision, not scared into giving v44 or mxpie.com\mxpie.info\whoever-they-are-this-week what they are dying to get.

If they want the source to anything, then they can either write it themselves, or they can start giving the community enough respect to tell them the truth instead of trying to scare them into an uninformed submission.
Period.

My voice may not be popular, but at least I have enough respect for the community and integrity to tell them the facts.

The facts are, winmx itself has been closed source for years and the community has not suffered for it. KM's patch was closed source and it has been the ONLY thing that kept us from being swamped out by the cartel's flooding operations.

A couple nights ago, the entire network went haywire and room after room of people were dropping like mad. No one could stay connected. Why? Because the blocklist got corrupted, and we dealt with AN ENTIRE 2 HOURS of being flooded. There was mass chaos. Imagine if that were to be permanent...

So before anyone starts trashing the work KM put into his patch (which has kept the flooders at bay for 2 years), and the custom inhouse written tools we use to detect flooders, and start accusing wmw of some mythical hidden evil, they better produce more than a just a stupid text file and complaints. For, I WILL tell the truth.

This scare tactic has been their cornerstone argument for 2 years trying everything they can do to get the source to KM's patch. And now they think it will be an easy accomplishment since KM is gone.

There is a BIG difference between diplomacy, and someone suddenly popping up with yet another olivebranch with a note tied to it that reads 'give us the source'

Best regards, and Be Good,
Scyre

MinersLantern · « **Reply #27 on:** September 10, 2007, 03:26:29 am »

Of course it should be closed, no need to show everyone friendly or not everything.
Some few peeps who know what they are doing can verify its free of kmwareish easter eggs and such. If the **AA wishes source, let them work for it and hire a prime reverse engineer or learn to do it themselves.
If the lil light goes green and nobody can eliminate that from happening everywhere at once, who cares if you know precisely how it works, just Some info is enough info.

chuck · « **Reply #28 on:** September 10, 2007, 03:54:46 am »

Everyone seams to forget that as soon as the riaa started on frontcode they folded fast with out a fight or a word.To think they did not hand over the program code is wishfull thinking. At one time people put their faith in vladd and we see where that went the pie patch is no more than it was the first day it was made. Now the person they put trust in saber has shown himself as the ass that he is trying to ban users from connecting to the wpn (i dont see how he will but in his own mind he is god so who knows).
Winmx world put their trust in km and now see where we are on that matter.Look at all the Trouble that has bee unleashed on mx over the years by a few people and the source is and has closed so to say haveing a closed source patch will protect us is verry hard for me to understand.All that does is let a group of people have control over all users of winmx and dont say that this will not happen again that was said fater vladd left mx km just stood up and took his place.I will say this km has done more harm over the years than vladd ever did and im no fan of vladd.Weve seen pie go at each others throats and then split over who was right in the way winmx should be now winmx world and km have done the same thing to a point. Lets not forget there are many people well they use to be who knows now that dont even know or care about the wars over what mx should be they just want a stable program with a good chat to use. i dont see a open source patch being equal to handing anyone the keys to winmx.So far the ones that have had the keys arent doing such a great job.iF they were we would not have 10 or so threads on this subject on this forum.And if if it was that easy to come up with a new patch we would have one by now alot of smart people (well i hope they are) are working hard on it now. That should show all you lets not hand over the keys people that it isnt as easy to cause harm as you may think. If server software is out there for more people to run and the source for any new patch is out there people new to mx may just come and work on it to make it better and keep mx alive.If they are bugs in the winmx program there is nothing we can do about that we dont have the source code and no one other than frontcode and maybe the **aa's do we will never know. all we are doing is makeing a patch to connect to a outdated p2p program becouse we like useing it.Funny thing is all you keep it closed people are not seeing what keeping it closed has done look at where we are today.Its closed and it didnt keep us safe from those that wish to do us harm. Say what you wish but winmx is dieing a slow death now its time to try some thing new open cant be any worse than it is today.

Mick832 · « **Reply #29 on:** September 10, 2007, 04:02:36 am »

Scyre, if a new patch was released tomorrow by somebody completely new, then I would wait for expert opinion from here before using it. The same as users who use Pie patch would wait for advice from their side as to if it would work and was safe.

A new patch, not open source, but released to selected people who are trusted by all sides could lead to a "close to perfect WinMX" where we would not have another 2 years of "KM's patch jumped out of my PC and beat my kids" and other such allegations.

Finding the "selected people" who could vouch for a new patch for ALL users may prove to be impossible.

The "selected people" do not have to like each other or be friends, but have to be able to set old differences aside and work together.

Maybe I live in a dream world. But then I have put aside differences with real people in the real world to overcome real problems.

I will try to be good, and thank you for your reply.

Scyre · « **Reply #30 on:** September 10, 2007, 04:37:26 am »

I agree Mick, that finding those people who are trusted by all sides may very well be impossible.

That is where most of the difficulty lies. I like your idea of a few people, rather than it being public, and I also like it better than just one person.

I just don't see how a group consisting of members from both sides would be possible, due to all the trust issues. And the big problem is the leakage.... someone in the group deciding to share the knowledge with everyone else from their side...

BTW, just so everyone is aware:
There are only a very few people within WMW itself that have any of the source for any of our work. So if there is any misunderstanding of how we operate I just want that cleared up. We have a lot of people who help in the mx room, many who work on the site, and a few that run caches, but only a very few that actually have any access to any sort of code for anything that goes on here. This is to prevent any sort of leakage, and make it a lot easier to track anyone who would reveal anything to others. (Smaller numbers, narrows suspects)

But for this to be carried over to a different group involving both camps, I couldn't even imagine where to begin on selecting people. There is just so much involved in it all, and so much hard work to be lost if anyone was less than 100% honest.

Perhaps a lot of people don't know, but there are a many more programmers in our community than the few names that are commonly talked about. If there were anything malicious in KM's patch it would have been uncovered a long time ago, and the same would go for anything else released.

One day that sort of thing could happen, I just don't see it anytime soon really.

Best regards, and Be Good,
Scyre

]-[êll.Ôñ.ËÀR'][']-[. · « **Reply #31 on:** September 10, 2007, 07:27:55 am »

there are several members of this site i would trust to farm a group to look after the patch (even if i dont always agree with them as they have always served us well in the past ) & i agree with scyre that going outside the group would lead to leakage issues.... i also agree that "If there were anything malicious in KM's patch it would have been uncovered a long time ago" as all the allegations in the past that came from outside this forum have been unfounded.
although i dont condone in any way what KM has done of late i got to say his patches have never let us down & are still not doing so & no one has exploited them to a extent that he couldnt fix in a short period of time. if that wasent the case most of us wouldnt have a green light even now
even open source the author still has the right to licence the code written by themselves effectivly owning anything they write so can still control winmx if they so chose to at any time & cause chaos
so being open makes it no less vunrable to someone power tripping if they want/or chose to it just allows a whole lot more ppl to have a go at wrecking it
you will get the vladds of this world poping up saying they have changed the code to it now there patch is the best war all over again x 100 (and just as likely selling it on as a closed source prog all over again) so trust it or not at least closed source here will always guarentee 3 things
1/ it will be free to everyone
2/ if there is a problem it will be fixed no hassle as quick as possible
3/ it will always work & assistance will be given to anyone with any problems

..Ñøßß¥.. · « **Reply #32 on:** September 10, 2007, 08:31:59 am »

Quote from: ]-[êll.Ôñ.ËÀR'][']-[. on September 10, 2007, 07:27:55 am

at least closed source here will always guarentee 3 things
1/ it will be free to everyone
2/ if there is a problem it will be fixed no hassle as quick as possible
3/ it will always work & assistance will be given to anyone with any problems

1. Unless the person who wrote it decided to charge, something that would be impossible under open source
2. Just like KM has fixed the flooding WCS?
3. It will always work? Comon at some point in the last few years every patch has had its issues, most of all KMs closed source patch, when he shut his caches down.

As for what is or isnt in KMs patch, we will probably never know, that wont be the case with Open source, and only a handful of users will truely know how important that is.

]-[êll.Ôñ.ËÀR'][']-[. · « **Reply #33 on:** September 10, 2007, 03:49:21 pm »

1/ well wouldn't it be the same person who writes it regardless of open or closed source or is there 2 sets of coders depending on what patch is decided on ?

besides even if it is open source it is still the property of the author and can be licensed as such & give them full control over it if they so chose ....so if the patch is to be wrote by the same person open or closed source & you think they could charge for it as closed source that doesn't really install much trust in the person creating the new patch does it ? they could just as easily license it as theirs as open source if they are that way inclined and still play god with it...... so that argument can cut both ways

2/wcs is a completely different issue... he always has sorted out any issues with the patches up until recently ....besides wouldn't it be coded by someone totally different .....KM wasn't even in that equation ....its about a new patch not the old one so no need for misleading ppl by bringing him into this issue

3/ yes patches have had there issues and were always sorted if not the case it would not be running today .....as for shutting the caches down that was his choice & he gave warning and assistance for a while to keep things running until it was being run independently.

coming back to the fact patches have issues then if it is open source and there is issues it will only be a matter of days b4 these are exploited for sure ....something that has not happened in the past with closed source & you can blame KM all you like but isn't it his patch that still keeps a majority of winmx running?

GhostShip · « **Reply #34 on:** September 11, 2007, 02:28:35 am »

Warning ?

When was this, he did say something dramatic in the chat room as he has done many times before, no one there said they made any sense of it, and then 12 hours later closed the caches with zero warning, I just had to post to clear this up as its totally false to say he gave warning, he did not.

]-[êll.Ôñ.ËÀR'][']-[. · « **Reply #35 on:** September 11, 2007, 03:39:18 am »

so this didnt give you no warning ?
https://forum.winmxworld.com/index.php?topic=5005.msg31312#msg31312

and then you went on to thank KM for helping out to get back online
https://forum.winmxworld.com/index.php?topic=5043.msg31631#msg31631

cant see whats false about that

although hes been a pain in the ass since ( a lot of which has been because of the infighting between yourselves & him ...not as one sided as ppl are led to believe) you cant deny he did give help when it was required back then

b4 having a go about this going off topic just read back to who took it there & practice what you preach and move that post and posts since to another thread and let this one get back on track and show the respect to the originator of this topic as you have told others to in the past

chuck · « **Reply #36 on:** September 11, 2007, 05:49:38 am »

I wish there had been a warning about putting up a web page that shows search request and IP's to match the request on the WPN.
I will not post the addy becouse ive been asked not to i dont really understand why but ill not, i do think all users should see it so no one could say its not true .If km had done nothing ealse but this its enough to not trust any program he has made .Him being mad at ghost or any of the members of winmx world is one thing thats between them but to put all users of winmx at risk is unforgiveable. The site is up and running as i type.Now id like to hear how you can justify this kind of action.

..Ñøßß¥.. · « **Reply #37 on:** September 11, 2007, 06:45:44 am »

Quote from: ]-[êll.Ôñ.ËÀR'][']-[. on September 10, 2007, 03:49:21 pm

1/ well wouldn't it be the same person who writes it regardless of open or closed source or is there 2 sets of coders depending on what patch is decided on ?

besides even if it is open source it is still the property of the author and can be licensed as such & give them full control over it if they so chose ....so if the patch is to be wrote by the same person open or closed source & you think they could charge for it as closed source that doesn't really install much trust in the person creating the new patch does it ? they could just as easily license it as theirs as open source if they are that way inclined and still play god with it...... so that argument can cut both ways

2/wcs is a completely different issue... he always has sorted out any issues with the patches up until recently ....besides wouldn't it be coded by someone totally different .....KM wasn't even in that equation ....its about a new patch not the old one so no need for misleading ppl by bringing him into this issue

3/ yes patches have had there issues and were always sorted if not the case it would not be running today .....as for shutting the caches down that was his choice & he gave warning and assistance for a while to keep things running until it was being run independently.

coming back to the fact patches have issues then if it is open source and there is issues it will only be a matter of days b4 these are exploited for sure ....something that has not happened in the past with closed source & you can blame KM all you like but isn't it his patch that still keeps a majority of winmx running?

1. Once you go open source, the cat is so to speak out of the bag, development will happen freely, its too late to go back and decide to charge, this is another reason open source is good.

2. WCS isnt a totally different issue, its a great illustration why having an open source patch that any coder is free to "fix" as required, there is no reliance on 1 person, another huge benefit.

3. Its not relevant, as once open source, people like KM simply wont have the power to cause such a problem end of

Keep em coming Hell, your making the case for open source all the stronger with your words...

Chuck, there is no excuse, KM have been abusing Winmx users privacy, and continues to do so, whilst i will not post post the site addy, someone else has, the cats out the bag, KM is not only doing his best to trash Winmx, he is compromising the users along the way, unforgivable as you say.

GhostShip · « **Reply #38 on:** September 11, 2007, 01:17:59 pm »

Re: POLL: Winmx Patch and Should It Be Open Or Closed Source ?
« Reply #35 on: Today at 04:39:18 am »

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
so this didnt give you no warning ?

Quote

https://forum.winmxworld.com/index.php?topic=5005.msg31312#msg31312

and then you went on to thank KM for helping out to get back online
https://forum.winmxworld.com/index.php?topic=5043.msg31631#msg31631

cant see whats false about that

although hes been a pain in the ass since ( a lot of which has been because of the infighting between yourselves & him ...not as one sided as ppl are led to believe) you cant deny he did give help when it was required back then

b4 having a go about this going off topic just read back to who took it there & practice what you preach and move that post and posts since to another thread and let this one get back on track and show the respect to the originator of this topic as you have told others to in the past

Whilst being rude again hell in your post, you have not shown any warning Hell, the link you indicate was posted after the caches where already closed, please do so or stop repeating a false claim.

Regardless of what you think you know regarding how ourselves and KM converse, some of the "advice" we got was not as helpful as you would have everyone believe, but regardless KM helped out as I would expect him to after his sabotage, I suspect he thought the whole place would collapse without him and when it didnt, he scuppered around to find new ways to damage the WPN, so ensuring we could temporarily use his patch was probably just so he could pull that later to cause yet more disruption, the actual delay in getting his patch running again was not on the patch side btw, it was in the dns setups for the operation of the blocklists, KM did belatedly supply that info and thats why we thanked him, we thank all those who help, something you seem to miss while your second guessing everyone.

Feel free to show where KM didnt close his caches unilateraly and didnt issue a DMCA unilateraly, and please stop quoting your version of our site policy to me as we use our own judgement to decide when a topc has veered too far off its track to warrant a fresh topic header, this one so far has not reached that stage, if people want to post something relevant to winmx activities I,m more than happy to give them leeway where no one is complaining.

Lagerlout666 · « **Reply #39 on:** September 11, 2007, 02:07:56 pm »

Damn popular this thread, seems their is like over a 1000 views of it yet only 40 people have voted, i mean christ isnt that what the topic offers, a poll and a voice to offer a opinion. I mean i think pretty much most of you have already voiced what that opinion is, so shouldnt it be now kept to yourselves so as others can vote and voice thier own opions. Or am i wrong an way off topic.

People vote with your fingers, say what you feel, then leave it, any growing concern ask the question. But any repeating yourselves umpteen times doesnt change anything, just pisses everyone off to the point of giving up completely on something that is and will be the defining point of winmx, something most seem to be completly missing the point of.