clafirication on official winmxworld policy

[ñòóKýçrÕôK]

I want these pie users who are saying this must be open source to post here. And if that is you Nobby I suggest you use your real name. No more of this Icwliesagain or Iceiswrong crap. Otherwise I will worry the hell out of Quicks or whoever I have to until you will lose your voice in this matter and on this forum. Let's keep it open and without insult. I don't intend to add any of them to my msn or my Yahoo or any othert messenger because that is my private space. They can deffend their side here as far as I'm concerned.

[Bearded Blunder]

it's not a case of what i've gained, you've engineered a situation where it is impossible for me to gain anything

i have, however, retained my integrity

i fully understand you think you can be certain that you can release code & know in advance it contains no exploitable bugs..

i'm sure that code checker you will use is foolproof, they all are after all, & none of us has ever installed ANY software that contained unforseen bugs or errors EVER

[icedragon]

its not thou nobby........
plenty of posts on this forum regarding the inaccuracy of the lists pie use.............so much so its universally accepted, by those that have a brain anyway..............
and if this whole open source saga isnt an attempt to get you maggots to block........then its even more braindead then it already is........
the risk to winmx isnt worth a few maggots actually blocking.......the risk is to high.......you are simply not worth it............

[ñòóKýçrÕôK]

And let me just add that this thread HAS BEEN off-topic damn near since it was started. Originally it was claimed that there was wrongdoing and censorship by this site and group. Still unproven as far as I can tell and won't be proven. Quicks I think what you want to do is admirable. I think it is being done with the best of intentions. But it is my opinion that even with all the facts that  by making it open src you run a huge risk to this network. There are so many things that could go wrong in doing so that I still pretty much feel it isn't worth all the risk. If the patch didn't offer blocking I would say go for it because RIAA/MPAA groups wouldn't fool with it simply because it doesn't restrict their access to this network. The fact is though that it WILL offer blocking and deny their access and therefor give them all they need to see to cause further and possably more harm to this network and in all due respects, if this is allowed to happen then all this struggle and fighting the past 2 years to keep them off of this network has been in vein. With all your conience I know that you do not wish to allow that but I'm afraid you are. This is not to say that I don't trust your judgement or feel you wish to harm this network. I just know that the old sayiong is true. "No matter how good you are, there is always someone better out there." This is true of KM, Merlin, Ice, you, myself, Me, and all involved. You say they are already going as far as they can go without running the risk of facing  legal action. I say they ARE the legal action. They have already proven that if a law doesn't fit their motives they will fight and push to change it to fit their needs. The same will hold true in the future. I feel as though no matter what is said in this thread by any poster that you intend to do what you intend to do. For your sake and WinMX's I hope it goes good. But I stand with KM, Merlin, Ice, and everyone else who says this is a bad idea. I do still wish to see the facts and would love to understand why certain "pie" individuals will only support it if it's open src and why they think it is safe, but my opinion most likely will not change. There is not enough facts for me to see as of now as to how it can be perfectly safe and until they are seen I will say it should be a no-go. And Ice, i still say you are by far one of the most knowledgable users on WinMX but I ask that you please don't attack anyone in particular. Nobby or anyone else. We need more facts and information to know what's up and their list really isn't what's in question here. If their list is accurate it's only accurate now because they have access to WinMXWorld's blocklist and that's all that needs be said on pie in regards to their blocklist. Please keep personal attacks out of this thread. We're here  for info and facts, not to pick a fight.

[NoAccount]

I want these pie users who are saying this must be open source to post here.

Nooky, you seem to have the misconception that Pie are dictating the patches status, what makes you think myself or Pie have any say whether the patch is OS or not? My position is simple, IF an OS patch, created by a team of users is released, i will personally support it, and do my best to get Pie to support it, this will ofc be good for the community, if all can sing from the same song sheet and put past differences behind we might just be able to attract new users to the network. You should also note that the user who actually wrote the first main section of the patch is a Pie supporter, and it may well be his intention that it should be OS, this will put to rest the suspicions of the past with KMs patch.

Nooky, i would gladly post here under my real name, but KM and Mehere voted to suspend my account, lift that ban and we can debate all you wish. Even after all the differences i have had with Ghostship over the years, we have always maintained some level of communication, when he contacted me regarding the potential for an OS patch, i was only to pleased to offer any support i could, its nice to see post KM, some members of the community are looking to move forward and for that he should be applauded. I have offered Ghost hosting space for cache look ups and the like, i have also offered platforms and BW to help distribute any new OS patch.

As for keeping it open and without insult, i am more than happy to, however i will not sit here silently whilst Ice lies and misleads others, he needs to be corrected, the block list used by Pie auto updater is indeed the WmW list and to say its ineffective is not only to discredit the WmW list, but its also a Lie.

[Le Wombat]

Seeing As Were Already Off Topic I Might As Well Continue

Time For A Logical Look At The Situation As I See It ..............

WINMX Is Like A Public Utlity : Used By Many But Owned By None
This In Itself Is Inherrent With Problems.

LEGALLY Unable To Alter The Program Itself, We Modify How We gain Access
To The Program Via Host Files DLL's & Patches.

In The Year Of The BIG BANG, A Couple Of Years Ago, No One Really Cared How
They Connected As Long As They Could Connect.

THANX To KM, Vladd And Hundreds Maybe Thousands Of PPL The Network
Is Resurrected From The Dead.

TWO Years Down The Track There Is Still In Fighting Between The Various
WinMX Splinter Groups.

KM Pulls His Servers And Services, BB Resigns And Everyone After Two
Years Of Hard Yakka Looking After All Of NSK's (Not So Knowledgables)
LIke Yours Truly, Is Stressing Out Due To Overwork And Worry.

TIME To Move Forward Or Cruise Along The Way We Are. Ghostship Along
With Others Spearheads A New Connection Method To Try And Unite The
Warring Factions And Make The Network Bigger And Stronger.

One Of The Pie Clusters Agree In Principle But Only If The Project Is Open
Source. Still There Are PPL On Both Sides Suspicious And Wary Of Their
Counterparts On The Other Side.

The Power Originally Created By Frontcode Was Transferred To KM And
Vladd And Now Rests In The Hands Of Probably A Dozen Or So People.
These People Are Now Ultimately Responsible For The Growth Or Demise
Of Win MX As We Now Know It.

ANY Suggestion Or Change To The WINMX Connection Method Will Probably
Be Decided By These People. I Myself Have No Doubt About The Motives Of
These People On WMXW, The Others I Am Not So Sure.

I Would Suggest That Before Commiting To Any Change In The Current
Connection Method, Which Appears To be Working OK At The Moment,
There Needs To Be A Reasonable Set Period Of Time, For All Parties Who
Are Involved In This Decision Making Process, To Understand All The Facts
And Ramifications Of Their Actions.

99% Of The Win MX Population Care Not For Politics, They Have One Simplistic
Wish. That Is, That They Can Connect Easily To The Network To Share And
Chat With Other Users Around The World (No More No Less)

Hopefully You All In Your Wisdom Will Be Able To Keep The Dream Alive And
Growing For All Of Us.

[GhostShip]

I thank all posters today for your simply put opinions and do wish to reassure there is no policy of release or be damned.

I had felt it was prudent some weeks ago to ask a small team of coders to make something that could hold us together if KM pulls the rug as he could at any moment, while this project alone is appealing, I had the idea to ask our fellow winmx users and some of their representatives from other sections of the community for their input on an open src patch.
Why open src ? , well two reasons, one I feel we are not gaining in the coding front and our knowledge pool is diminishing, this was on one hand an effort to ensure the future for other users is secure when all the coders have left, and as I have also explained it would please many to be able to use a patch without fear of unknown functions, its not so much the functions but the fear of the unknown thats the main factor.

I hope some of you find enlightenment in my reasons for wanting this to go ahead, I,m working on making some more material available in a visual format to help some amongst you with the basic blocks of whats involved, it doesnt hurt to listen and there is no rush to take any action at this time, the patch is not yet filtering as well as it could and will be at the earliest some weeks away, at that stage I shall take it to the group, a group picked for their intelligence and tenacity when faced with disaster, they have not worked hard to sell the community down the drain, as I made clear if they say no then I shall shelve the work securely.

[Bearded Blunder]

Nobody who understands the situation doubts the need for a new patch, as an insurance against not being permitted use of KM,s if nothing else.

If i had either the knowlege, or the time to devote to gaining it, i'd have commenced work on one myself.

I've never disputed the potential gains to be made by opening the source either.

I just won't (and won't support) betting the potential loss of winmx in persuit of them.

You can protest it's completely safe till you're face turns blue, the fact is you can't know you've overlooked nothing when deciding that, some other eyes, the first or 4000th pair may see something you didn't, through a different mindset.

[silicon_toad2000]

So we're still banging away at the open source thing and still nothing constructive has been put forward as an alternative.

Could we achieve the same ends with a freeware licence and making the new patch source available to those who come and ask for it.

As far as I can tell this would enable anyone interested enough to obtain the patch and grow the knowledge base but at the same time it is not open source.

Can those for and against the open source patch perhaps go though the merits and shortcomings of this method?

[GhostShip]

Both the patch and discussions relating to its code are ongoing but not at a stage for me to be able to report any change of the status quo.

[Bearded Blunder]

Toad, both methods are fundameltally flawed, it's a situation i wish i saw a solution to that truly fixed it, but unfortunately i don't think a perfect solution exists:

Open source:
advantage, ability to build on what we have is open to everyone (maximum chance someone will)

major problem, information on which to base attacks & exploit vulnerabilities (known & yet to be discovered) are also open to everyone (maximum chance they will)

Closed As you describe
advantage: addresses the problem above

disadvantage: limits new talent's access to prgress

attendant major problem: who do you trust when they ask for the code
corrolary: who do you trust to decide who to trust???

Completely closed:
advantage genuinely secure (as far as code goes)

disadvantages:  new talent/coders have to re-invent the wheel when starting any new project (rediscover everything rather than just build on it)  this seriously inhibits progress

in case such as a patch, the coder who makes it, also retains rights to control who can/can't distribute it & on what terms, giving them right to effectively cut any new users off from getting it (prevent dsites having it for download) this is a MAJOR drawback

none of the three is truly satisfactory, overall personally i favour the middle one, closed but code available under suitable conditions to parties with a legitimate need for it, it balences risks somewhat, it's also a political minefield & i honestly can't see any means of deciding access that won't result in tensions & bickering, but it's still better than either free-for-all open to everyone (genuine coders, enemies & dickheads who write bombs etc just because they can, plenty of those out there, open your av & look at listed definitions number)

Thankfully i'm no longer part of the decision process per-se all i can do is throw my opinion in & hope my concerns are listened to.

This is a far more comfortable position than being actually responsible as part of the decision making process, something that was previously thrust upon me when i never wanted it to begin with....

[icedragon]

unfortunately thou merlin the only voice of reason has now been lost from this so called group..........
this group who self appointed themselves to decide the fate of winmx...........
as we all know vladd speaks and nobby opens his mouth,and yet this group with no mandate have decided to cuddle upto the most devious person on winmx, or have we all forgotten vladds antics over the last two years.......sure hope not............
if they want to devolp a patch so be it.......but they have no business risking winmx in the process, they dont own it.........
and risk winmx they will.........no matter what pie say they simply cant be trusted, and they should never be in a position were winmx is at stake.........or do you all forget that if vladd had had his way you would all be paying for winmx by now, the only reason you aint is due to km and winmxworld.............the cartel only exist on winmx because of pie and despite nobbys claims of blocking ( snickers ) reality is nobby we fix as many vladd/ pie disasters as we do gem/sabres side, your patch blocking solution is a joke..........and theres plenty of posts regarding that already.........so you go live in your fantasy world were you think you block the rest of us know full well you dont............pie cant be trusted end of story.............
if winmxworld want to devopl a connection method just incase km decides to get nasty then so be it, actually that would be prudant, but that doesnt mean that winmx should be put at risk in the process, absolutely no need to risk anything.......if pie wont have anything to do with a closed devoplment then it clearly shows that there not really interested in being co-operative or devolping anything now does it...........as demanding its open source is a recipie to a disaster, and seeing that pie dont have any coders its laughable there demanding anything, after all these are the same idiots that struggled with a hosts file for two years......reality is if they had any coders who could devolp anything they would have by now without any need for winmxworld, the fact they cant do anything and need winmxworld should tell you something...............
quicks if you want to devolp something then good luck to you but ffs dont risk winmx for it.......
and you certainly dont need to have the most devious person on winmx running around with his hidden agenders being a part of anything...........
this is a dangerous game with very high stakes, and winmx cant afford for you to be wrong as once its done theres no going back
no reset button to push...........the cartel cause enough damage as it is, all due to pie i might add, and you simply cant say that there will be no bugs or exploits in what ever you devolp that would be nieve............
so before you committ to anything weigh the good as against the bad............
as i see it and merlin by the looks of it the bad is the totall demise of winmx
the good is a handfull of pie users might use a decent blocking connection solution........
but that still leaves you with the vast majority of pie users aka gem / sabre still causeing trouble by there refusal to block anything...........
so what has winmx really gained as against the fact that a bunch of people with unlimited resources will find a exploit that really causes winmx to go belly up...............all this for a handfull of pie users, are they really worth it in the end................

[..Ñøßߥ..]

and seeing that pie dont have any coders its laughable there demanding anything

- 80% of the new patch was coded by a Pie supporter. At least 1 other Pie supporter is likely to play an important role in the coding team.
- Pie are making no demands whatsoever.

Again Ice, please get your facts right before you mouth off.

[..Ñøßߥ..]

quicks if you want to devolp something then good luck to you but ffs dont risk winmx for it.......
and you certainly dont need to have the most devious person on winmx running around with his hidden agenders being a part of anything...........

Agreed, KM should play no role in the new patch.

[Mick832]

I think the "most devious person on winmx" was in reference to you Nobby.  I used to read lots of posts on another site where you had lots to say.   Your post were always informative, and I hope you don't descend into name calling.

I try to read things on here to keep informed, but I tend to skip posts with the word maggot repeated over and over.

I'm only an average user, but I won't read stuff based solely around personal attacks.  It hides the truth I feel.

[..Ñøßߥ..]

  I used to read lots of posts on another site where you had lots to say.   Your post were always informative, and I hope you don't descend into name calling.

Well, thanks Mick, i would rather not address Ice at all, BUT i must ensure he does not mislead users with lies, and if it means i am forced to read his posts and correct him, then so be it.

There is a real opportunity here to look beyond past differences and put together a community patch, this will be good for all concerned, WmW will remove all reliance on KM (the current situation could turn sour at anytime), Pie users will get filtering and public fighting over patches would be minimized. With WmW, V44 and mxpie.com, along with no doubt a whole number of other sites offering such a community patch we could really see a bright future. In addition peer caches would be independantly run, with mulitple indexing sites, this would remove the centralized situation that has occured in the past when 1 user throwing a tantrum can cause network chaos.

[chuck]

 My god if you take vladd44 and kmout of all the patches you know what you have left? The users. Im sure winmx will go on with or with out vladd or km, isnt it about time we all worked together.Some say vladd tried to kill mx at the end,he couldn't same is said about km he couldn't. So lets just drop all the us them BS and make mx better. Open ,closed, all i know is if a person wants the sorce bad enough they will find it out if they work hard enough.But all i see in this thread is still the same old hate pie users. ghost i dont see how youve not given up with all this argueing over the same old bs.It would be best if everyone worked on one patch and have another to fall back on.All thoe i dont see where there would be a need if the wpn is hacked by the cartels it would not matter what patch you use. Its a good thing most users dont read threads like this becouse they would have gave up on mx a long time ago.My god 9 pages of this.LOL funny thing is even with all this bs winmx still goes on.Just goes to show winmx is stronger than pie or wmxw.Not one idea has came from all this what a shame.

[GhostShip]

Good day to you Chuck 

I do think many good points have been raised and more likely to follow but what is important is to keep our feet on the floor whatever comes along.

I have stated the reasons for wanting this new patch, I am certain the cartel know exactly what is taking place with how we filter their fakes , what folks are getting hung up on is the fear aspect, they do not seem to be taking on board the fact winmx has a protocol it uses and all clients must use that protocol, you cant just say let me do this or that it has to either be an allowed feature or nothing will happen.

In the cae of filtering, the packets involved are incoming search results, what possible harm does anyone see in this ? Its not possible to use the same packet type to flood the network without having 9000 IP addresses to match the current flooder system , so its in effect virtually a one way function.

In winmx certain packets must be replied to by other certain packets , this is done to prevent false ip spoofing, this ensures bad, fake or incorrect order packets are dropped and ignored, this is why I am confident with this scheme being open src and why the cartel after 2 years have still not been able to beat the filtering, no one can deny they havent tried.

[Bearded Blunder]

the old "it hasn't happened yet so it can't" argument
more foolishness

i can't & wojn't support any group that uses such logic when the safety of winmx is concerned

[GhostShip]

Bearded you have made your point now allow others to ask questions and get answers, merely repeating yourself as if in mantra every 3rd post detracts from the respect I have for you.

Let others have facts and information to make their own minds up, you are being listened to, whilst you may have serious reservations making snide remarks is not helpful and is in your case beneath you.